Westboro Baptist church is at it again

[Scouting Mom]

"These people are more obnoxious in getting their beliefs publicized, but those beliefs are essentially the same as those held by many others in this country: homosexuality is a sin and should be punished/eliminated."

 

Then please explain why they say those Scouts died because the people of Nebraska and Iowa are evil. Why do they carry signs that say "God Hates America." How are these beliefs essentially the same as those held by many others in this country?

[Trevorum]

My understanding of this sect (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that their core issue holds that homosexuality is a terrible, terrible sin and those that tolerate it should be punished (and shall be, by God). Everything else in their shtick is hyperbole and media trappings.

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

From what I've seen (and I did skim their FAQ), their key positions are...

Hate The Sin.

If you practice the sin, then Hate The Sinner.

If you condone practice of the sin, then you are as guilty of the sin as being a practicioner, and Hate The Sinner applies as well.

If we perceive you condoning practice of the sin, then you are as guilty of the sin as being a practicioner, and Hate The Sinner applies as well.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a very easy time with their theology. It's not the Christianity God has taught me in churches and Bible studies for a few days now.

 

Romans: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I don't care... homosexuality, lust, murder, theivery, fraud, ... it's all one with God. It's wrong, and God works on a one-strike rule. (I won't even get into original sin here, but it's part of my specific belief system).

 

Ephesians: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

John 3: 16-21: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To me...

 

God designed the human body. He designed the parts to fit. When we use the parts in ways that are out-of-design, that's on us.

 

Does it mean I hate someone? NO. It means I share God's message. The time of witnessing continues through this life. It ends when we pass this life. God assumes the role of Judge then.

 

I know folk who are G/L. I've shared with them what I understand God is telling me.

 

Remember, though... absent the Christ, I am as foul and besmirched and undeserving of Heaven as everyone else who has been.

 

I hope that makes sense, and explains the difference between most Christian churches and the sect called Westboro...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[yelruh]

Trevorum

I agree with you on a lot of issues, but as a religious person I do not feel it is man's job to: "homosexuality is a sin and should be punished/eliminated." I know many gay men and woman, and I have zero problem with them as people, while I don't agree with their life style, I would certainly not judge it, because I haven't lived in their skin.

 

in your later post, the only thing I would agree with you is that:

 

"Everything else in their shtick is ... media trappings."

 

and I'd add LAW SUITS against anyone who touches them.

 

I think most people are very much a live and let live situation with gays. As long as it's done in private among consenting adults, it's a very different issue than proselytizing.

[Trevorum]

yelruh, I'm certainly not advocating their message OR their style. I would certainly hope that, as generations pass, we as Americans are increasingly becoming tolerant of those who are different from ourselves. I dunno, though - I still hear a lot of hate speech.

 

John, I know you are a good fellow and you would never be obnoxious about forcing your religious beliefs on others. Certainly none of of us would ever befoul ourselves by the vile tactics used by the Westboro sect. Still, I see no meaningful difference between your core beliefs on this issue and theirs.

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

What I hope are four core differences:

 

- I am responsible to God for myself. No one else. Not Government, not BSA, not my employer are responsible to God for me.

 

- I certainly do not believe God's witness if effective when the primary active ingredient is vitriol.

 

- I am not allowed to issue judgment. God keeps that to Himself. Only by His Grace and empowerment can I even say the words He gives me.

 

- Finally, but for God's own power and gift of His Son, I am damned.

 

We could debate the great philosophers 'til the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I'm of the school which says humanity, one by one, is all fallen.

 

And yes, I sin when I think of Fred Phelps "Will no one rid us of this meddlesome priest?" (Becket) I have to remember that God is trying to save him as well.

[Trevorum]

John,

You may see those as "core" differences, but to me they are merely splitting theological hairs. Both you and Phelps (as well as lots of others) condemn homosexuality as a sin. To me that is as nonsensical as condemning left-handedness, or AB-negative blood, or Heterochromia iridium.

[Rooster7]

I'll say it:

 

Homosexuality is a sin.

 

If you think that equates to hate, you're ignoring simple English and introducing your own bias.

 

The vast majority of believers I have ever encountered and witnessed (via the media and everyday life), do not hate homosexuals or any other sinner.

 

In fact, we all sin.

 

That said we (believers) are called to recognize and confront sin in our own lives, and to make others aware of Gods teachings. And the Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

 

That said - what the WBC is doing, does not qualify as "teaching" and enters into an arena that can and ought to be labeled as hateful.

 

That said folks, who want to lump all Christians together and portray them as coming from the same mindset as the WBC, are also being hateful.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

OK. We respectfully agree to disagree. It could be lots worse; we could be the Merlyn and _______________ show, or the Kudu and _________________ show.

 

Later, my friend.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Yeah, John, we're gonna disagree on this issue. (But that's OK 'cause I know I'm right and you're wrong )

 

So, how about them Royals?

[John-in-KC]

You mean the Kansas City Loooooooooooooooooooooosers?!?

 

What about the Chumps?

 

Listen to this, it's the football team I'm following the next four years: http://tinyurl.com/4j95rc (It helps EagleSon will attend there).

 

I've followed this basketball team since Dad was a student there: http://tinyurl.com/4bo88l(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Trevorum]

Rooster, I know you do not hate anyone. You're a good fellow, thoughtful and articulate (and passionate) about your beliefs. But many other folks do hate anyone who is different from them. There's lots of vitriol, hate, and fear out there directed towards homosexuals. The Phelps gang is just high-profile about it.

 

You say it's a sin. I just don't see the logic there. As I said, that makes as much sense to me as condemning left-handedness (which was actually the case at one time - viz. "sinister") or Heterochromia iridium as a sin, or any number of normal but low frequency variations in human biology. My persepective on this matter is probably a result of my educational background and exposure to lots of different kinds of people. Your perspective is probably a result of your religion. I don't expect to convince you (or John) of my position. But I appreciate your listening.

 

[GernBlansten]

Take out the hateful vitriol of the WBC slogans and focus on their core message. They are claiming that the wrath of God will be brought upon the people who tolerate sin. Even the innocent are not safe. They point to disasters as evidence of such wrath. This is no different than what Falwell, Dobson, Robertson, Hagee and most fire and brimstone preachers claim from their pulpits. The later just use kinder, gentler words. The message is the same to me.

 

Now if they are right, I'd be moving well away from the west side of the San Andreas fault, PDQ.

[John-in-KC]

Gern,

 

The azimuth is off.

 

1) Every human from Adam has sinned. Period. We all deserve God's punishment when we meet him.

 

2) God has a standard for admission to Heaven: Absolute perfection. You're welcome to try to achieve that standard. I've already failed abjectly.

 

3) God has provided a Plan B: He's called Christ Jesus. He did meet God's standard, even to death on a Cross. He rose again and is in Heaven.

 

4) Disasters are not indicative of God's wrath, they're indicative of sin being in this world.

 

5) The last time I checked, it's going to take a long time for Southern California to slide into the Pacific.

 

 

[skeptic]

Actually, Southern California already is in the Pacific (or on it)to the west of the San Andreas fault. The fault is the break point of the continental and Pacific plates. As such, the pressure northward and under to the east, acting in union, split off the section on the west and it is very slowly creeping northward. At some point, should the earth and U.S. survive that long,(yah, not likely), those of us west of the fault in the L.A. area will be saying hi to Berkley, while San Francisco will have moved to the vicinity of the Oregon, Washington border (you think Oregonians and Washintonians are upset now by the California interlopers; lol).

 

So, there we have it. Of course, in that period of time, anything could change, including all of us becoming another Atlantis situation. Who knows.