Federal funds and scouting

[Gonzo1]

Ed,

I believe you exist, I also believe that gravity exists, can't see it either.

 

Rather than hijack and go into existentialism, the BSA can and does discriminate, just like many groups. I wonder, How many whites are members of the Congressional Black Caucus? Racial discrimination at the halls of government, Congress. Doesn't seem fair, does it?

 

How many boys are members of Girls Scouts?

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

Ok...can't resist....have to bite again!

 

Remember we have "Freedom of religion" not freedom from religion the First Ammendment reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

 

The founding fathers never established that religion, or non-religion would be out of bounds anywhere. The entire purpose of this part of the document is to prevent the establishment of a national religion, and the restrictions on practicing one's faith, or even NOT practicing one's faith. Any subsequent decisions on this is interpretation which is why(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[GernBlansten]

Well Pack212Scouter, if you are gonna put up that bumper sticker slogan, can I put up my favorite?

"You can't have freedom OF religion without first having freedom FROM religion."

 

[evmori]

By guaranteeing freedom OF you have freedom FROM religion.

[GernBlansten]

Its the other way around Ed. Think about it. Unless you have the freedom to NOT engage in religion first, can you truly have the freedom to engage in any religion you wish, to any extent you wish.

In your premise, you must have the freedom to be religious before you can exercise your freedom not to. This assumes that one must have exercised his religious freedom by being religious before rejecting it. I know its semantics, but I get riled up when someone posts "Its freedom OF religion, not FROM religion". Kinda like, "America, love it or leave it".

[Pack212Scouter]

"Its the other way around Ed. Think about it. Unless you have the freedom to NOT engage in religion first, can you truly have the freedom to engage in any religion you wish, to any extent you wish."

 

Actually, you are mistaken Gern. Communism, is one glaring example of freedom from religion not allowing freedom of religion. You cannot have a true concept of freedom OF religion without allowing for athiesm (which is of itself a form of religion as defined by one's beliefs), while the concept of freedom FROM religion does not include guarantees of religious freedom. Ed's premise does not assume that you must believe in God before being athiestic. Very generally interpreted, Freedom OF religion guarantees all religious (belief) rights, the rights to practice them, and the right not to have other religius beliefs interfere with your own. While Freedom FROM religion only guarantee's one's right to not believe, and not to be forced to abide by other's beliefs.

 

As a sidenote, freedom of religion is different from BSA's diversity of beliefs premise. BSA's premise is that one must believe in "GOD", but allows for a very broad interpretation of this (basically a belief in a higher power than one's self), including non-theistic beliefs which acknowledge a higher universal power.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[acco40]

Okay, let's say I'm Mr. Athiest. Me and the little women raise up a few kids. One day, my oldest asks - "Dad, why does the president always end his public speeches with God bless America?" Well, son, I answer, he believes in God and he is expressing his belief something that most Americans, including your mother and I believe in. The next day, "Dad, why does the Pledge of Allegiance have the phrase "under God?" I tell him about the original PoA and that the phrase was added during the red scare/McCarthyism of the 50s. The next day he asks why politicians of all stripes that he has witnessed are sworn in on a Bible and state "So help me God." The same for court room witnesses. Tradition, I tell him.

The next day, "Dad, why does it say In God We Trust on all of my coins?" Go, ask your mother I say.

 

This Q&A goes on again and again. Is this freedom from religion?

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Acco40 writes: "Okay, let's say I'm Mr. Athiest. Me and the little women raise up a few kids. One day, my oldest asks - "Dad, why does the president always end his public speeches with God bless America?" Well, son, I answer, he believes in God and he is expressing his belief something that most Americans, including your mother and I believe in."

 

First, let's start by saying that you either made a typo or you're a "fundamentalist" atheist with multiple wives (women).

 

I say YES, it is freedon FROM religion as well. You don't have to listen to Presidential speeches, turn it off. Our Founding Fathers believed that our nation was endowed by our Creator with certain rights, that God helped them make the country. By saying God Bless America or putting In God We Trust on currency doesn't establish a "religion", but rather recognizes the Creator. If the president said "everyone kneel, face Washington DC and pray 5 times per day when the horn sounds" or everyone in the US must convert to XYZ denomination or some such thing, THEN you have establishment OF religion.

 

You're free to practice whatever religion or no religion. go to church or not, it's up to you. But, the atheist shouldn't worry, the atheist doesn't believe, so what's the difference?

 

The breakdown in the US is about 96% Christian, 3% Jewish 1% other. So why are we bending over backwards for the 1% or less who are atheists? Atheists don't believe in God, the BSA says you must to be a member. What's so hard to understand?

[Pack212Scouter]

Before certain others reply, I'd just like to correct those figures a little. The closest estimates for the US religious beliefs are about 80% Christian (the largest groups are Catholic 26% and Bapist 17%); 5% other religions (the largest being Jewish at 1.4%); and 15% declaring no religion (of which only about .5% each claim Athiest and Agnostic, the rest simply state they have no religion). Basically, of the US population, roughly 85% fall into BSA's statement on religion; 14.5% are not sure about what they believe (and therefore probably couldn't care less); and about .5% do not.

[GernBlansten]

Yet the LDS make up about 1.8% of the population and have the majority of power in how the BSA operates.

[Gonzo1]

Gern writes:

"Yet the LDS make up about 1.8% of the population and have the majority of power in how the BSA operates."

 

Gern, I really don't know how the LDS church has a majority power in how BSA operates, please explain.

[GernBlansten]

The charter organizations have the voting power in BSA from the volunteer side. The LDS is geographically divided into wards. Each ward is a charter organization in BSA. There are thousands of wards. The LDS automatically enrolls all male children in their ward into their BSA units. So the net result is although LDS is a small minority religion in the US, they have a very large percentage of COs in BSA (compared to the number scouts in the units). They swing a pretty big stick in regards to setting BSA policy.

[skeptic]

In yesterday's paper there was an interesting article about Jefferson and his "view of God". As has been noted, he was a "Deist", and as such very skeptical about many elements of religion. Still he believed that Jesus was real, and that his very basic tenets were worthwhile.

 

Early in the 19th century, Jefferson basically cut and pasted what he considered to be the most relevant parts of the New Testament and Christ's teachings. He called this "wee little book" The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazereth. In a letter sent to John Adams from Monticello in 1813 he calls this 46 page book "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".

 

Jefferson is finally quoted as saying; "Say nothing of my religion. It is known to myself and my God alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life; if that has been honest and dutiful to society, the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one".

 

On-line reference for the bible is "

[vol_scouter]

It is interesting to examine the reason for the religion clause in the first amendment. The several of the original 13 colonies had state supported religions. The religion clause in the first amendment was to insure that the federal government would not prevent the first 13 states from continuing to have state supported religion. The 14th amendment essentially federalized many state laws which removed the ability of states to have state sponsored religion (though that was not the purpose of the amendment.

 

Thus, the founding fathers initially allowed state sponsored religion. Though they may have been uneasy about this, I believe that they would say that the way the courts have ruled s far from their intentions.