Federal funds and scouting

[Mr. Boyce]

Say Merlyn, I guess I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you.

 

I'm familiar with a community in which community taxpayers paid for various athletic fields and tennis courts. The school locked up the tennis courts over one summer,and eventually wiser heads prevailed, saying that taxpayers could use the facilities which they themselves had paid for.

 

It's fine in my book to let almost any group use public facilities, even ACT UP, local pit bull owners or white supremacists. . . as long as it's not an organization avowedly seeking the overthrow of the U.S. government. People are sophisticated and can determine easily that the school may not condone an ACT UP meeting on its premises, etc.

 

In the instance of the scouts, to return to 1929 or so, I believe it was practical field experience from World War One that convinced many in the U.S. government that scout training was EXTREMELY helpful to the public good: scouts made good soldiers. With respect to creed, etc., I very much doubt that a scout would intentionally withhold lifesaving assistance from a Jew or Catholic or gay or atheist or gun control advocate, whatever.

 

With respect to chartering organizations, the large public value of scouting outweighs its minimal perceived negatives. I'd say it's okay for a school to charter scout troops. At least that's where MY vote would go!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, the constitution doesn't allow public schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, and it's a good thing too, since there are quite a lot of people who consider the rights of atheists to be infringed "for the public good," just like Jews or Catholics in earlier times.

 

Gonzo1, I advocate for atheists' rights; your suggestion that I lie to join the BSA is fairly common, but some atheists are too honest to do that.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

I'm not suggesting that you are a liar or would lie, but c'mon, you gotta believe in SOMETHING greater than ourselves. Some Power, Presence, Omnipotense, Light, God, Diety or even a Tree. If atheists generally believe there was a "big bang", who created it? Could it be the Creator?

 

I don't really want to discuss theology or atheology, but you gotta admit it, something Greater than ourselves created all of us.

 

If iI were at my son's school and a sign advertising an atheists meeting tonight, I would not be offended.

 

May the Master of of all scouts be with you, Merlyn.

 

Communications ban back ON.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

I'm not suggesting that you are a liar or would lie, but c'mon, you gotta believe in SOMETHING greater than ourselves. Some Power, Presence, Omnipotense, Light, God, Diety or even a Tree.

 

Nope. I find it hard to believe people believe in gods. They're no different than fairies or ghosts.

 

If atheists generally believe there was a "big bang", who created it?

 

Why do you assume there IS a "who"?

 

Could it be the Creator?

 

You're still assuming your conclusion. What creator? Why don't animals appear out of thin air today?

 

I don't really want to discuss theology or atheology, but you gotta admit it, something Greater than ourselves created all of us.

 

No, I don't "gotta admit it." Real, actual atheists exist. You seem to be an aatheist (someone who doesn't believe atheists exist).

 

If iI were at my son's school and a sign advertising an atheists meeting tonight, I would not be offended.

 

How would you feel if your son's (public) school had his teacher running a school club that rejected your son for not having acceptable religious views?

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn, sometimes, you make this too easy and too fun.

 

There exists proof today that the ark was actually found on Mt Ararat and other things.

 

It is my understanding that there have been barnacle formations at the bottom of the Red Sea - in the form of chariots.

 

True enough, not actual proof that God exists.

 

It's kinda like this. I (we) believe in God, you don't. We have a club (BSA) with certain membership rules. If you can't conform, you can't become a member. There are no secrets, or special passwords, the "executive washroom" is really an outhouse, but there is a special handshake.

 

If you had an atheists group, you probably wouldn't appreciate me (or any of us) to barge in and force you to accept us.

 

To my knowledge, the BSA doesn't charter anymore scout units to government related entities. However, scout units can meet there. It seems the main difference is whose name is on the charter. Big Whoop!

 

That's the thing about "faith". We believe in something we can't see, hear or fully understand, but yet, we still believe. I'll agree that gods are no different than the tooth fairy, but God is quite different altogether.

 

You can't believe we believe, I can't believe you don't.

 

I heard a rumor that your "leader" Madaline Murray O'Hare actually got religion in the end. There's always room for one more, come join us.

 

I'm glad BSA doesn't take money from the government, I wish we wouldn't take money from United Way, but that's another story.

 

I have to comment on your horrible tactic of dissecting someone's comment, that put's us on the defensive. Regarding your last comment, if my son's teacher were leading a club and my son couldn't become a member because of my son's religious views, I could tell my son he doesn't qualify and why. I could also use your tactic, hire the ACLU and sue the breeches off the school, the teacher and the parent organization of the club. It would be eaiser to do the former, but I would probably get some joy that I could stick it the atheists via the ACLU like they stick it to us.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

There exists proof today that the ark was actually found on Mt Ararat and other things.

 

The ark fable is about as realistic as Santa visiting every house in the world in one night. Sorry, it's not a credible story in the least.

 

Here are some of the problems:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

 

Who do you say found the ark?

 

It is my understanding that there have been barnacle formations at the bottom of the Red Sea - in the form of chariots.

 

Yes, because the only possible way for a chariot to be at the bottom of the Red Sea is by having the sea magically part, someone drive a chariot in, and have the sea magically close up again. No chariot being moved by barge or ship has ever sunk.

 

True enough, not actual proof that God exists.

 

It's about as good a proof that Tiamat, a god from a different religion that also has a flood myth, exists.

 

It's kinda like this. I (we) believe in God, you don't. We have a club (BSA) with certain membership rules.

 

Yes, yes, I know all that. You'll notice that I haven't stated anything different.

 

...

To my knowledge, the BSA doesn't charter anymore scout units to government related entities.

 

No comment on how the BSA never did the honest thing on its own initiative, and had to be threatened with lawsuits to do so?

 

However, scout units can meet there. It seems the main difference is whose name is on the charter. Big Whoop!

 

The "main difference" is whether a government entity is violating someone's civil rights or not. You don't seem to find other people's rights to be of much concern.

 

You can't believe we believe

 

That isn't what I said. I said "I find it hard to believe people believe in gods."

 

I can't believe you don't.

 

Well, that's your problem.

 

I heard a rumor that your "leader" Madaline Murray O'Hare actually got religion in the end.

 

You hear lots of weird things. But considering she was murdered some weeks after being kidnapped, very few people would likely know, except the person who murdered her. Why are you so gullible?

 

I have to comment on your horrible tactic of dissecting someone's comment, that put's us on the defensive

 

Why is that a "horrible tactic"? I quote something you write, and reply to it. What's wrong with that? It's a coherent way to argue specific points. You dislike precision in conversation?

 

Regarding your last comment, if my son's teacher were leading a club and my son couldn't become a member because of my son's religious views, I could tell my son he doesn't qualify and why. I could also use your tactic, hire the ACLU and sue the breeches off the school, the teacher and the parent organization of the club. It would be eaiser to do the former, but I would probably get some joy that I could stick it the atheists via the ACLU like they stick it to us.

 

So, would you allow your public school to violate your son's religious rights or not? Sounds like you might, but only for some childish revenge, not because it's the right thing to do, and that you would also be preventing that school from violating the rights of other people's children. I happen to fight for my rights and the rights of my family; you can be a doormat if you like, but doormats don't get any respect from me.

[evmori]

I always find it interesting that people who can't see, feel or touch something don't believe it exists. Or because they can't comprehend that something could be done, it didn't happen.

 

Sure the ark was an amazing vessel. Just as the pyramids are amazing structures. And yet, we don't know exactly how they were built.

 

O'Hair was a Pittsburgh native and originally a Presbyterian! And it is sorta humorous that when she tried to defect to the Soviet Union, she was turned away! Her son, William, converted to Christianity decade ago! And he also referred to his mother as an evil person. Sounds like the kind of person I would want to put my belief in! NOT!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, there are all kinds of things that exist that I can't see, feel, or touch; however, all of these things have other evidence for their existence, and not just bronze-age myths. The ark was "amazing" in the same sense that Santa's sleigh, able to take him to every home in the world in one night, is "amazing." And no Ed, O'Hair isn't any kind of atheist "pope," I was an atheist long before I ever heard of her.

[Gonzo1]

I'm not gullible, my rights aren't affected, neither are yours.

 

Go ahead, ask your local school if your fictional (or actual) atheist group can meet there.

 

God exists, period.

 

I gotta say this about you Merlyn, you have a strong conviction for what you believe in (or actually what you don't believe in) and I admire your dedication. I don't agree with it, but I admire it.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

I'm not gullible, my rights aren't affected, neither are yours.

 

When public schools discriminate against atheists, my rights ARE affected.

 

Go ahead, ask your local school if your fictional (or actual) atheist group can meet there.

 

Uh, why? I haven't been arguing that scout groups can't meet in public schools. I've been talking about who charters a BSA unit. Do you understand the difference?

 

God exists, period.

 

Gods are myths, period.

[Gonzo1]

Yes Merlyn, I understand the difference. That's why you should recognize that your rights are NOT being violated. BSA no longer charters BSA units. I don't see how public schools discriminate AGAINST atheists, public schools nowadays demand that God is to be removed, that commencement ceremonies must not contain reference to God and so on.

 

I suppose the best thing to do is to find a different school, or better yet, start your own. I know some people who were dissatisfied with the local public schools and started their own PRIVATE schools. Sure enough, there Christian schools, but they're private.

 

You should be happy, BSA DOESN'T charter units anymore.

 

Now I'm done.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

Yes Merlyn, I understand the difference.

 

Then why, when I've been talking all this time about who charters a unit, did you bring up the totally irrelevant suggestion that I ask if an atheist group can MEET in a school? The analogous situation would be to ask if a public school would be willing to own & operate an atheists-only group. And in that case, no, no public school CAN own and operate an "atheists only" private club.

 

That's why you should recognize that your rights are NOT being violated.

 

Sorry, your evaluation of what my rights are are about as good as your evaluation of bronze-age myths.

 

BSA no longer charters BSA units [to public schools].

 

Yes, I know. I made sure of that. You seem to think it was legal.

 

I don't see how public schools discriminate AGAINST atheists, public schools nowadays demand that God is to be removed

 

There's still that pesky pledge of allegiance (and there should be another verdict coming up on that soon, by the way).

 

that commencement ceremonies must not contain reference to God and so on.

 

Yes, because public schools aren't for religious ceremonies. If you want a religious ceremony, feel free to go to one, or hold your own.

 

You should be happy, BSA DOESN'T charter units anymore.

 

Well sure. But the BSA had to be forced to do the right thing, they saw nothing wrong or hypocritical in having public schools own & operate their "private" clubs. The BSA is a fundamentally dishonest organization now.

[evmori]

Ed, there are all kinds of things that exist that I can't see, feel, or touch; however, all of these things have other evidence for their existence, and not just bronze-age myths.

 

Name a few Merlyn!

 

I think we forget the BSA legally discriminates as do many other organizations.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I haven't directly seen, felt, or touched these things, all of which I believe exist:

Albania

Neptune (the planet, not the god)

giant tube worms that live near volcanic ocean vents

Ed Mori

The number 43,173

 

The above is not an exhaustive list.

 

Ed, who has been forgetting that the BSA discriminates legally?

[evmori]

That's the way I thought you would answer, Merlyn. Typical. Why do you believe what you listed exists if you have never seen, felt or touched those things/places?