The Guy who Killed the Red Berets still at it

[Kudu]

If I remember correctly, when I was looking through the insignia guide, it stated that hats could be worn inside during ceremonies. Just not to be worn during religious ceremonies/services. Also if you look at many of the older pictures and you will see scouts wearing hats during indoor activities

 

A collection of official BSA photographs and drawings of Scouts wearing hats for ALL indoor activities (including religious services) can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/hats/inside.htm

 

The red berets were introduced around the same time that the BSA killed Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method and made it possible for "inner-city youth" to collect Eagle Scout badges without ever attending a single campout. Oh, and demoted the Uniform from "Method" status to "Program Element" for a decade (as in the 1972 "Seven Methods of Scouting)." See the History of Scouting Methods:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

So the red beret is a finger-in-your-eye symbol of fake Scouting.

 

Maybe Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca should introduce them again to complement his current 1972-style racial fake Scouting media campaign.

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I do not think the Red Beret was a finger in the eye of real scouting at all, I say it was pretty snazzy headgear introduced at the right time.

 

I loved the Red Beret, I also love my Campaign hat, the field cap not so much as that is the one that never fit my head

[Kudu]

I do not think the Red Beret was a finger in the eye of real scouting at all, I say it was pretty snazzy headgear introduced at the right time.

 

I think that proves my point: It was introduced at the "right time" to replace GBB's "Real Patrols" with Leadership Development theory. Do the Patrols in the Troop that you serve hike and camp without adult supervision on a regular basis (Green Bar Bill's definition of a "Real Patrol"), or failing that at least camp 300 feet apart as per Baden-Powell's description of his Patrol System?

 

Or do they practice family campground "Leadership Development" theory and look "snazzy"?

 

Kudu

[OldGreyEagle]

I think the Red Berets were/are cool and remember many good times I had while wearing one. I hope all youth who participate in the BSA or other youth program get as much enjoyment out of their time in the program of their choice as I did in the Boy Scouts.

 

I did not know that looking snazzy and being skilled in scoutcraft were mutually exclusive attributes. You can certainly look snazzy and be in campsites 1500 feet away from each other. The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program...

 

hey, wait a minute..., Let me think about what I just said

 

"The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program"

 

hmm. I am going to have to recontemplate this whole uniform thing again.

 

"The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program"

 

Help!

[Kudu]

hmm. I am going to have to recontemplate this whole uniform thing again.

 

"The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program"

 

Remember that the Red Berets were invented by the same guys who killed the "Uniform Method" (and the "Scout Way Method"). The Uniform was NOT one of the new "Seven Methods of Scouting" in the 1970s: It was literally "the least of our concerns," replaced by the new family campground Patrol theory called "Leadership Development."

 

When the Uniform Method was finally reintroduced at the end of decade, it was in the ultimate form of snaziness: The indoor, hothouse fashion statement of Oscar de la Renta. Reportedly BSA Scout Shops were flooded by women desperate to own an "Oscar de la Renta original."

 

As the "snaziness" of a 1980 dress designer's fashion statement faded, Holders of the Wood Badge used "Scout Spirit" sanctions to force boys into their ugly "symbol of Scouting's deeply held values."

 

The Uniform should be functional in the great outdoors.

 

Period.

 

If Scoutmasters who like Red Berets camp their best Patrols 300 feet apart, and if their Scouts actually want to wear them, then I do sincerely wish them the best.

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

As I don't associate the Red Beret with the death of scouting, I don't associate the Red Beret with the death of scouting.

 

And again with the snazziness issue, actually a rhetorical query, anyone can play along. If the BSA came up with a "snazzy" uniform, and in this situation I define snazzy as distinctive, fashion forward, clean and modern and youth joined Boy Scouts just so they could wear the uniform, would that situation be wrong?

 

OK, if Wood Badge Holders are responsible for that what we call the Red Beret, and the Red Beret came out in the early 70's then forsooth, Wood Badge has already been hijacked long long long before I took it and probably most of the forum posters. Hey guys, the one who took the version of Wood Badge just before Wood Badge for the 21rst Century, did you know your Wood Badge program sucked out as much as the 21rst Century version?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Kudu]

youth joined Boy Scouts just so they could wear the uniform, would that situation be wrong?

 

Yes, it would be wrong if it attracted boys who collect Eagle Badges without attending a single campout, as was the BSA's goal in 1972, the year after Robert Mazzuca was hired.

 

It would be wrong if it attracted boys who join just to play soccer or sit indoors "side by side with adults of character," as is the goal of anti-camping spokesman Robert Mazzuca now.

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

OK, if Wood Badge Holders are responsible for that what we call the Red Beret, and the Red Beret came out in the early 70's then forsooth,

 

Wood Badge is the Uniform Police of snazzy Leadership Development, introduced in 1972, the same year as the snazzy Red Beret.

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Wood Badge has already been hijacked long long long before I took it and probably most of the forum posters.

 

That is correct. Holders of the Wood Badge sold their souls the day that they turned their backs on Green Bar Bill's Patrol Leader Training and embraced the White Stag "11 Leadership Skills."

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Hey guys, the one who took the version of Wood Badge just before Wood Badge for the 21rst Century, did you know your Wood Badge program sucked out as much as the 21rst Century version?

 

True enough: Both are based on fake leadership. Beret-wearing armed forces do not elect their commanding officers every six months any more than Kenneth Blanchard's "One-Minute-Mangers" do.

 

All "Leadership Development" theory is a knife in the back of Green Bar Bill.

 

Kudu

[OldGreyEagle]

Holy Cow, and all this time I thought that Kudu was only mad at 21rst Century Wood Badge because of its concentration on Management and Organizational Skills. I never realized that when Kudu talks disparagingly about Wood Badgers and the Wood Badge Culture he was including all the Wood Badge Curriculums ever since 1972.

 

I am sorry Kudu, I never understood at all until just now

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Hal_Crawford]

"All "Leadership Development" theory is a knife in the back of Green Bar Bill."

 

A wee bit melodramatic, are we?

 

Let's play Clue:

It was Mr. Mazzuca in the parlor with the scout knife.

 

Hal

[Lisabob]

Phew! Kudu, it is good to know you're all right. For a while there, with all your YMCA bashing, I thought maybe you'd lost your grip on Wood Badge. But now I see all's well as you are continuing to growl and snap at Wood Badge too. Kind of like a terrier.

 

Glad to see you back on form, buddy.

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

I never realized that when Kudu talks disparagingly about Wood Badgers and the Wood Badge Culture he was including all the Wood Badge Curriculums ever since 1972.

 

99% of all of the BSA's problems would eventually be solved if we moved Patrols to Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart.

 

The other 1% are due to poor reading comprehension.

 

Hal_Crawford writes:

 

A wee bit melodramatic, are we?

 

Nope.

 

If Wood Badge ever got its hooks into the BSA's only remaining Position of Real Responsibility, BSA Lifeguard, took away their position-specific training as they did to Patrol Leaders in 1972, and forced them to apply Wood Badge theory to the waterfront, we would either have a pile of dead kids every year or Wood Badge cult members would gloat about swimming in the same way they do about the backwoods Patrol Method as described by Baden-Powell or Green Bar Bill: Children swimming in water over their heads is "old-fashioned," and "modern society" will never tolerate six month "PORs" in water deeper than a baby pool.

 

Hal_Crawford writes:

 

Let's play Clue:

 

It was Mr. Mazzuca in the TV studio: "Camping is not a big thing with them. In fact it is not big at all."

 

Lisabob writes:

 

For a while there, with all your YMCA bashing, I thought maybe you'd lost your grip on Wood Badge.

 

Same thing, Lisabob: YMCA intentionally killed Baden-Powell's Patrol System in 1910. Wood Badge intentionally killed Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method in 1972.

 

Lisabob writes:

 

But now I see all's well as you are continuing to growl and snap at Wood Badge too. Kind of like a terrier.

 

So you wouldn't mind if I compared you to a dog?

 

Lisabob writes:

 

Glad to see you back on form, buddy.

 

The Red Beret is a symbol of the destruction of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method in 1972. Wood Badge is the Guardian Angel of that destructive force: Leadership Development.

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

See thats the whole point, I love the Red Beret because of what it means to me. Wearing the Red Beret was the high point of my scouting career. When I was a scout we had the gung ho patrol. The scoutmaster put us all together in one patrol because a few of us would get upset if another patrol member wouldnt take scouting as serious as we did. he put us together, called us the Gung Ho patrol and we did patrol outings. We camped away from the troop. Can't say it was 300 feet, but it was away and only members of the Gung Ho patrol were allowed to wear the Red Beret. So, to me, the Red Beret was/is cool.

 

To Kudu, apparently the red beret is his symbol of whatever is wrong with the BSA.

 

So, there you have it, to me the Red Beret is Iconic of the good times I had as a scout while to Kudu the red beret is more moronic than iconic. Two realities taken from different perspectives which are polar opposites. I can respect Kudu's viewpoint, although so much different from mine

[Eagle92]

I say forget all other headgear,and go with the cheap army surplus Smokey Bears

 

Seriously I have found that headgear can be a very personal issue at times. While Kudu views the beret as a symbol of Scouting's worse period, which sounds as if it may be coming back IMHO, OGE's view is that it was a symbol of the best patrol in his old troop.

 

In my case, the Smokey Bears that I wear symbolize the 2 weeks I spent doing Brownsea 22, and later staffing JLT. There was no national recognition for those courses like WB beads, which they now award scouters serving on NYLT staff if they meet certain conditions, so my council awarded those smokey bears upon completing the course, or for staffing the course. The council recognized that a recognition was needed beside a temp patch and BROWNSEA strip, and decided upon the smokey. Maybe it was a national thing as I have seen a photos of other BROWNSEA staffs wearing smokeys, but Iw as the last BA22 troop in my old council, so some of the history was lost to me when I served on JLT staff. So that hat was an award, yet some have posted that it was a "nice gift" from my council and nothing more.

[Lisabob]

Hey, Rick, no offense meant. I apologize if that came across wrong.