Pagan Scouts

[DanKroh]

"Maybe you went deeper into Google than I did ("wiccan OR wiccans scout OR scouts OR bsa") or have knowledge otherwise, but while I found several references to wiccans being denied unit charters, not one reference had a who, what, when, or where -- much less a why. Perhaps you can share details if you know or have access to them."

 

Actually, most of what I know is from direct discussions with other Pagans who tried to become chartering partners, who were told that their group "does not represent the values of Scouting", without further explanation of how they don't represent the values of scouting. I think the lack of details you discovered is because the BSA was not forthcoming with much reasoning.

 

"As I recall the 25 unit rule, it was announced in the early 90's. There WAS talk at the time of Wiccans being involved, but also one-church protestant denominations."

 

Yes, in my research into the CoG award, they were stymied by the BSA announcing the 25 unit rule only after they had submitted their curriculum for approval and done everything else the BSA required. Inventing the 25 unit rule gave the BSA a cheap out without having to actually address the content of the curriculum.

 

"As for Covenant of the Goddess itself, is it not more accurate to say that it ASPIRES to be the umbrella organization for all Wiccans? As in, does Universal Federation of Pagans, New Wicca Church, Pagan Allliance, Circle Sanctuary, or Sacred Well acknowledge CoG as their parent organization or representative? I don't know. I just found them via Google, claimed to be organizations that bring Wiccan covens together."

 

Again, the BSA is inconsistent (surprise, surprise) about what constitutes a "national organization". Are the National Catholic Council on Scouting and the National Jewish Committee on Scouting acknowledged as parent organizations and representatives of every Catholic parish and Jewish temple in the country? It seems to me that the CoG has at least as much standing as those organizations. Maybe if they put "National" in their name, that would make a difference...

 

"Also interesting that CoG's religious award was proposed by CoG not merely as an award for Wiccans, but also for Druids, Asatru and Native Americans. Isn't that like the Greek Orthodox Church proposing that they set the standards and issue an award for all Orthodox churches? What would the Druids say about that?"

 

Most Druids I know say "it's cool". Actually, the CoG awards can be used for "any nature-oriented religion" and comes with the disclaimer that "Requirements are Wiccan in orientation, but may be adapted to other faiths by the adult working with the young person". CoG is quite willing to be flexible in the requirements to encourage as many Pagan young people as possible to learn more about their individual paths. Is not the "God and Country" series of awards used by multiple Protestant denominations, even though those denominations vary, sometimes greatly, in their doctrine and practice? The CoG didn't say, "This award shall be for all Pagan religions." They said, "This award is primarily for Wiccans, but other nature-centered religions may find it applied to their faiths as well, and we don't even mind if you adapt the requirements to fit better."

 

[david_w_rahfeldt]

I think this is a remarkably simple issue that everyone, from our BSA Legal Dept to non-scouting public is making way too complex ... often in an effort to use the issues involved as a forum for their preferences and politics.

 

No surprise there, eh - welcome to America - land of opportunists - oops ... I mean opportunity ... rofl ...

 

OK this is simple.

 

Our constitution states clearly that religious discrimination is not allowed.

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

 

First Amendment - remember ?

 

Both as Americans and as Scouters whose dedication to the rights of individuals and the development of a rational and mature value based society ... and individuals therein - is our mission ... should we shirk this responsibility to uphold the Constitution, human rights, and Scout Values ... by taking it on ourselves to decide what is, and is not, a valid religion or belief system for an individual, Youth or Adult, to hold.

 

Simply put, we need to stick to our knitting, encourage value based lives and character development as we help EVERY boy willing to participate to have the opportunity to do so.

 

I dont care if the individuals Higher Purpose or Context or God is advanced mathematics, Giaa, Paganism, Particle Physics, Christian Gods of one sort or another, Buddhism, Judism as a Philosophy, or whatever.

 

We have a mission, how about we stick to the mission of helping boys learn, grow, achieve, and succeed in becoming mature, rational, self-actualizing, independent thinking adults?

 

Let's leave the debate on the rest to others ... and keep it out of Scouting ...

 

What do I say when I am asked about that religions are acceptable? I tell youth and parents that Scouting requires that everyone involved believe in a higher purpose or context for life, and that it is not my business, or that of Scouting, to police or judge what the individuals choice is, or the value of it.

 

I reinforce that it IS important to aspire to a "higher purpose or context" to life and its value, and that might be a traditional recognized religion, a personal belief system, or whever he individual chooses ... but so long as they believe that there IS a purpose and value to life, and hence that living a "value based life" is desirable, they are welcome in Scouting.

 

I state flat out that I dont want to know their flavor of choice in matters of religion or personal beliefs ... it simply is not relevant to Scouting ... unless they choose to pursue a religious award or achievement ... or unless they need an escort to or support for their religious belief or personal philosophy on an outing.

 

I have been asked by Chartering Organizations or by Religious Leadership in the same, to encourage Scouts to come to or participate in their religious organizations or services and have always stood firm that while we encourage and support and individuals right to personal choice and active involvements in religious beliefs and activities, that we can not endorse or encourage one religion over another, or even make an active inquiry of a youth or adult, as to what their preference is.

 

Folks, I think we need to keep Scouting dispassionate in such things ... and remain a NEUTRAL BUT SUPPORTIVE program.

 

When on hikes, and asked to support folks religions as the Adult leader, I have read and conducted with equal repect for all, services and traditions including native american indian rites, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist Traditions, and many others.

 

I make a simple statement that IF any adult or youth wishes to include a public or private religious or belief based ceremony during out hike that I would appreciate it if they can privately notify me of their needs so that we can work together to accomodate them, so long as they are consistent with safety and respect for all, during the hike.

 

So my Mantra is ... SUPPORT ... per the 1st amendment each individuals rights, help proect and foster their rights and belief systems, so long as it does not compromise good ethics, or others rights, or the constitution.

 

Some sponsoring church organizations are scrupulously disciplined, considerate, and ethical their behavior to non-members who are in their sponsored or chartered units (LDS is great in this way) ... and others (Catholics are notorious in this way) often see Scouting as "just another religious club or program" under their thumb ... or in a few cases, a recuiting branch for their Parishes.

 

Now to be fair, I am sure that there are Catholic Parish or Dioceses that are strictly ethical in this and LDS Stakes that have offended sensibility by trying to be missionaries to their Chartered units ...

 

Regardless of who is doing what normally, in terms of religious or chartering organizations behaviors, - - - as Scout leadership we need to make sure that our units remain supportive of individual choices, but resist endorsing any religion over another, even under presure from a chartering organization to do so.

 

Only by remaining supportive but neutral can we ensure that Scouting will be a viable legacy available to all in the future.

 

 

[TAHAWK]

David, I like where you end up; truly I do. But the legal argument that you present is based on a false premise. The First Amendment bars action by the federal governement, not private parties. Out of their experiences with the Church of England, the Authors were concerned about the establishment of official religions by the government. Later amendment extended Constitutional protection of inalienable rights to actions by state governments.

 

In fact, the Freedom of/from Association guaranteed by the Constitution bars the federal government, with specific exceptions (such as "public accomodations") from forcing a private party to associate with those whose beliefs they reject.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

[Bob White]

I agree with TAHAWK's comments regarding the First Amendmendment and the fredomof/from Association. I think it is important to note that you have a second false premise to your argument. David, what you state as being the Mission of the BSA is incorrect. The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is "to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law".

That is considerably different from you thought it was.

 

Our Mission is not about what youth do after Scoutings, it is about what we do while they are in Scouting. We prepare them, we instill scout values. That is our mission. We hope that through these actions that more young people will be able to make ethical choices.

 

With both of your premises false it would be impossible for them to lead to a correct conclusion.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

I'm one of them folks that cling to God and my guns. I think Jesus was fathered by the Holy Spirit.

 

Merlyn on 5/11 you wrote that Jews can be atheists. How does that square with Old Testament teachings?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Most Jews don't consider belief in the Jewish god to be a requirement to be Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Jew

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Wow, thanks.

 

 

If it's good enough for Woody Allen, it's good enough for me!!!!!

 

 

Moses all your efforts were for nothing.

 

Sure makes all those Jews and Arabs fighting look foolish. The prophet Woody has spoken.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Your sarcasm doesn't do much about your ignorance of Judaism, and it's hardly unique among religions where belief in a god is not a requirement. Religions don't have to fit your preconceptions.

[theysawyoucomin']

Yes, I was being a horse's fanny.

 

Sometimes I pet strange dogs and run with scissors.

 

You seem to be more focused on the nationality of being Jewish not the faith for your argument. I am sure there are folks who would say you are really not a Jew if you do not think there is a God. Just as many Catholics say you cannot be Catholic and "pro-choice" about abortion.

Woody and Albert can say anything. One was arguably the brightest guy that ever lived the other guy looks like a lunch money victim, and can make us laugh but neither was sought after for guidance about God.

 

I have probably spent about 40 days(no correlation) to others journeys there) in Israel but it was about thirty years ago.

 

I'm sorry you are still hurting from your cub scout days and I do respect your depth of knowledge in this area. Haven't we stomped on the Scouts enough?

 

Why do you want to change the belief system of over a million kids(present) and nearly 100 years to fit your idea of what Scouting should be? The BSA might be the largest youth tolerance school in the world. It's the adults that are asking people to leave. These topics rarely come up with the scouts themselves.

 

 

If the ACLU fought for second ammendment rights with as much zeal as taking the BSA to the woodshed they may have some street cred. Mostly they just are known for the extremes.

 

Why doesn't the ACLU go after Uncle Sam for killing unborn babies by funding abortion. That seems to be an intrustion on ones rights, to be grabbed out of the womb seems to be worse than getting roughed up by the local cops.

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

You seem to be more focused on the nationality of being Jewish not the faith for your argument.

 

No, I'm not talking about nationality, I'm talking about what most Jews say about who is Jewish. Jews can also be atheists. Like I said, their religion doesn't have to follow YOUR particular misconceptions of how religions can work. Some religions do not have theism as a requirement.

 

I am sure there are folks who would say you are really not a Jew if you do not think there is a God.

 

I'm sure there are; most Jews would not, from what I can tell.

 

Why do you want to change the belief system of over a million kids(present) and nearly 100 years to fit your idea of what Scouting should be?

 

I don't. What are you babbling about? You brought up a statement I made a while back that Jews can be atheists. That's a true statement. You seem surprised by it, and you also seem to be trying to deny it. Good luck with that.

 

The BSA might be the largest youth tolerance school in the world.

 

And I might be Marie of Rumania.

 

It's the adults that are asking people to leave. These topics rarely come up with the scouts themselves.

 

Except when they or their friends are among the people asked to leave.

 

If the ACLU fought for second ammendment rights with as much zeal as taking the BSA to the woodshed they may have some street cred.

 

They do, actually. It's just that their interpretation of the 2nd amendment is pretty much in agreement with supreme court rulings, so there isn't much to do.

 

Why doesn't the ACLU go after Uncle Sam for killing unborn babies by funding abortion.

 

On what grounds?

 

That seems to be an intrustion on ones rights, to be grabbed out of the womb seems to be worse than getting roughed up by the local cops.

 

Well, if you abort a woman's fetus without her consent, I'm sure you'll get charged with a crime.

[TAHAWK]

"The BSA might be the largest youth tolerance school in the world."

 

Brian replies: "And I might be Marie of Rumania."

 

When I was a Scout, we were picketed by the John Birch Society every Scout Week because we were supposedly Comsimps or dupes of the Commies. Why? Their signs said noted that Boy Scouts had racially integrated Troops (gasp!), raised money for UNICEF (?!?!?!), and had a World Brotherhood Merit Badge (LOL). My Troop had boys of many religions, including Buddhists as I have pointed out. We were "white," brown, "black," and "yellow." One of them was the son the the head of the county chapter of the ACLU. My how times have changed.

 

"If the ACLU fought for second amendment rights with as much zeal as taking the BSA to the woodshed they may have some street cred."

 

Brian replies: "They do, actually. It's just that their interpretation of the 2nd amendment is pretty much in agreement with supreme court rulings, so there isn't much to do."

 

Hold on to that thought for the few months remaining in your fantasy that "the people" in the Second Amendment means "the state." Strange how the ACLU only has a problem with "the people" in one amendment only.

 

In any event, Jefferson said the rights come from a higher power, not the state. The Bill of Rights establishes no rights. It prohibits the state from interfering with rights otherwise granted.

 

One should really read what was said at the time about the right to bear arms. No respectable historian is confused.

 

"Why doesn't the ACLU go after Uncle Sam for killing unborn babies by funding abortion [?]

. . .

That seems to be an intrustion on ones rights, to be grabbed out of the womb seems to be worse than getting roughed up by the local cops."

 

Brian replies: "Well, if you abort a woman's fetus without her consent, I'm sure you'll get charged with a crime."

 

Homicide?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

TAHAWK writes:

Hold on to that thought for the few months remaining in your fantasy that "the people" in the Second Amendment means "the state."

 

I haven't given my opinion at all. I've stated that the ACLU substantially agrees with supreme court rulings concerning the 2nd amendment, because that's what the ACLU says:

www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html

..."The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment [as set forth in the 1939 case, U.S. v. Miller] that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia..."

 

"Well, if you abort a woman's fetus without her consent, I'm sure you'll get charged with a crime."

Homicide?

 

Depends on the state. Some states have separate feticide laws, some subsume them into laws against manslaughter & murder.

[theysawyoucomin']

The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since the time of the biblical patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[22] According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the Jews, by God, as their homeland,[23][24] and the sites holiest to Judaism are located there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bet the Palestinians hope this Atheist Jew thing takes off and expands. Then God will not have given the land to them.

 

The Jews that don't think there is a God, are they working hard to get the Jews out of Israel? After all they going be squatting.

[eolesen]

Sheesh... I take a four month break from the forums, and right at the top of the list is yet another diatribe from Merlyn...

 

Must....

 

Grind....

 

Axe......

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

uz2bnowl writes:

I bet the Palestinians hope this Atheist Jew thing takes off and expands.

 

Why?

 

The Jews that don't think there is a God, are they working hard to get the Jews out of Israel? After all they going be squatting.

 

Your ignorance of Judaism and politics will probably keep you wondering about all sorts of odd things.