Pagan Scouts

[TAHAWK]

This has been a great journey into true non-denominationalism. Boy do we need to work on our religious observances -- to check really carefully before we open mouths or even schedule all such for Sundays (And I don't just reference Seventh Day Adventists.)

 

Brian posts:

 

"The only thing I'm saying is that official BSA policy at national is to kick out atheists. If you're a Buddhist and an atheist, BSA national will kick you out for being an atheist. If you're Jewish and an atheist, they'll kick you out for being an atheist."

 

Since you have the burden of proof on the affirmative of your statement, Brian, prove it.

 

No, don't quote the lawyers on "atheists," That's theory, we don't know what THEY meant by "atheist," and yuor interpretatino (of their interpretation) is contradicted by the official BSA statements squarely on point that I quoted (and that you won't talk about) and 88 years of past behavior.

 

I want real-world proof of "will" -- of actual behavior or express intent to act.

 

Show us a Buddhist -- or Jain or non-theist Hindu -- kicked out by BSA or told he or she is going out because he or she is a non-theist - an atheist.

 

Or show us a statement from BSA that, not withstanding the any higher power rule, Buddhists, Jains, or non-theistic Hindus are out.

 

On my part, I have already pointed history. You just keep arguing, implicitly and expliciitly, that BSA for 88 years, and its religious affairs directors, MUST NOT know what it all means; like BSA thinks Buddhists are sorta exotic Baptists (Both begin in "B.").

 

"Does not!" isn't much of a comeback. Brian.

 

Brian posts:

"bsalegal.org is as much a BSA site as scouting.org"

 

It says that is is a site maintained "on behalf of" -- not "by - the BSA. It is run by one of BSA's law firms. I think you know that very well. You have been into this for years. I just got "here" this week.

 

I have conceded that BSA can't avoid responsibility for what's on the lawyer's site. But someone as into legal stuff as yourself ought not to complain about being technically accurate. It is not BSA's own site, and it says that.

 

And I just give more weight to generations of behavior (including personal experience since 1954) and express statements by the BSA of practices it mandates concerning questioning Scouts about the subject.

 

Brain posts:

"The "actual conduct" of the organization is to refuse membership to atheists. They refused the Randall twins and went to court. They testified in the Powell case that atheists couldn't join. When David Wise testfied in the Welsh case and mentioned that he, too, was an atheist, HE was kicked out. Brad Seabourn was kicked out for being an atheist."

 

Oh yes, the tent-year-olds who somehow knew they were "atheists." A PARENT trying to make a point, using his children as tools. Not admirable conduct by an adult. What DID the ten-year-olds believe? Or tell me what dad had coached them to say. Did they acknowledge ANY higher power? You would know this to the last detail.

 

The other two, who knows. I suspect that found them on Google (Like I just did. Gee, only three hits for Seabourn. Pretty obscure.) What did they beleive - or not believe? Did they, like Lambert, your other example (above), deny ANY higher power"? That would make them not just atheists, in the literal sense, but also not "reverent" because they refused to acknowledge any higher power. This last would differentiate them from Buddhists, Jains, and non-theistic Hindus. So if you have some proof that they were believers in ANY higher power, bring it on.

 

Brian posts"

"'Would it be better, somehow, if BSA actually did exclude everyone except "People of the Book"?'

 

Now you aren't even making sense. "People of the book" is typically a Muslim term referring to Christians and Jews, so I'll suppose you're asking if it would be better if "BSA actually" restricted membership to followers of Abrahamic religions."

 

And yet, I seem to have communcated. You got it in one.

AND YOUR ANSWER IS?

 

Brian posts:

"But that doesn't resemble at all what I've been saying. I've been saying that the BSA kicks out atheists. There are plenty of people who are NOT "people of the book" and who are NOT atheists, so your question doesn't relate to anything I've been saying."

 

And your statement ("I've been saying . . .") seems to me to clearly be an overgeneralization. Clearly the BSA kicks out SOME atheists and allows in those who acknowledge a higher power.

 

Is it a good thing or a bad thing that BSA allows some atheists in and excludes others on the basis that the excluded deny any higher power? Is discrimination AMONG atheists not as bad, as bad, or worse than discrimination AGAINST some atheists? I would think that's not really a hard one for you. It's religious discrimination in favor of believers in a higher power, with all that implies.

 

Brain posts:

"I thought the issue was whether official BSA policy is to refuse membership to atheists.

 

Please note it's possible to be a member of a religion and be an atheist. Being a member of a religion does not erase the possibility of being an atheists.

 

ALSO note that it's possible to be a member of a religion that does not require belief in a god, yet some members of that religion CAN believe in gods."

 

Certainly agree with the statements. "Hindus" are so all over the lot that it could be Western ignorance (and current politics in India) that lumps them together under the "Hindu" label. Even the theistic Hindus differ on the identity of the Supreme Being.

 

As to the issue, as you have framed it, the evidence seems fairly clear to me.

 

Brain posts:

"And how about Jains and expressly non-theist Hundus?

 

Are there any who BSA national knows to be atheists, yet allows them to keep their memberships? I'd genuinely like to know, as that would be significant."

 

One knows from the unchallenged proof presented. You have to assume facts not in evidence to conclude they don't understand what they have been doing for 88 years or understadbn the words they have posted on the BSA website.

 

And, again, why would discrimination AMONGST atheists on religious grounds be "significant" to a champion of atheism. Don't you want us to take the whole package?

 

Brain posts:

'"Gotta watch out for those those polytheists in Scouting too."

 

If the BSA decides to interpret their DRP to exclude polytheists (which they could, of course), then yes."

 

I guess I can wait to see if something happens. Policy and practice could change. Always possible. But its not probable to me that BSA will launch a purge of Wiccans and polytheistic Hindus when the rule is any higher power.

 

You are in a position in the battle against Scouting where "viewing with alarm" is useful - perhaps essential.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk writes:

No, don't quote the lawyers on "atheists," That's theory, we don't know what THEY meant by "atheist,"

 

That's true of ANYONE using the term, though.

 

Sorry, I'll stick with what the BSA says on their own website, and what they testify to in court under oath.

 

Show us a Buddhist -- or Jain or non-theist Hindu -- kicked out by BSA or told he or she is going out because he or she is a non-theist - an atheist

 

Show us one known to be an atheist to BSA national who has not been kicked out, or told he or she will not be kicked out.

 

Are you an atheist and a Buddhist? You could be a test case if you are. I don't know if the national BSA has ever had to address this situation directly.

 

On my part, I have already pointed history. You just keep arguing, implicitly and expliciitly, that BSA for 88 years, and its religious affairs directors, MUST NOT know what it all means; like BSA thinks Buddhists are sorta exotic Baptists (Both begin in "B.").

 

"Does not!" isn't much of a comeback. Brian.

 

That hasn't BEEN my comeback. I keep showing instances of atheists getting kicked out, and official BSA statements that atheists can't be members, and you keep ignoring them.

 

"Now you aren't even making sense. "People of the book" is typically a Muslim term referring to Christians and Jews, so I'll suppose you're asking if it would be better if "BSA actually" restricted membership to followers of Abrahamic religions."

 

And yet, I seem to have communcated. You got it in one.

AND YOUR ANSWER IS?

 

The way your question is phrased made it sound like you thought I was arguing that only members of Abrahamic religions can be members; in any case, I haven't been arguing that. By the way, no, I don't think it would be better. But it wouldn't surprise me very much.

 

Clearly the BSA kicks out SOME atheists and allows in those who acknowledge a higher power.

 

Clearly this is a new use of the word "clearly." I don't think the BSA's policies are terribly clear at all. Darrell Lambert said I think the only higher power than myself is the power of all of us combined," which is a belief in a higher power (humanity), yet he was kicked out.

 

"Are there any who BSA national knows to be atheists, yet allows them to keep their memberships? I'd genuinely like to know, as that would be significant."

 

One knows from the unchallenged proof presented. You have to assume facts not in evidence to conclude they don't understand what they have been doing for 88 years or understadbn the words they have posted on the BSA website.

 

I'll take that as a "No."

 

 

[TAHAWK]

Brian,

 

You assert that certain things are true, or will be true - things contrary to quoted, very express BSA policy on the subject of what "Duty to God" and "reverent" require. Then you say I - someone - anyone - needs to DISPROVE your unproven assertions as to policy, practice and future events.

 

I don't think I have to disprove your assertions, even if I could prove the negative.

 

I think I have the right to rely on the statement of BSA that only acknowledement of a "higher power is required and the statement in Lambert's case that even an aknowledgement of soemething as amorphous as reverence for "nature" would have been enough.

 

I think I can rely on my experience with Buddhist Scouts in my Troop when I was a Scout and in my Troop as a Scoutmaster. They were very clear as to why they didn't join in prayer (no one to pray to), not that they were offended. (Two, earned more than one Buddhist religious award.)

 

I think I can rely on the 88 year history of Buddhist Scouting and BSA's explaination of the tenants Buddhism.

 

You disagee. Free country.

 

I submit that you expressly rest your analysis on two things:

1. The lawyers said all "atheists" are barred, and Buddhists are "atheists" to the lawyers. Ergo, Buddhists are banned and will shortly/soon/sometimes have to go; OR

 

2. The BSA does not understand that most (all?) Buddhists are non-theists, like my fellow Scotus all those years ago and the Buddhists Scouts in my Troop twenty years or so ago. When BSA figures out what (most/all?) Buddhism is about, Buddhists will have to go - not just exotic Baptists.

 

Implicitly ("Implicitly, because you will not discuss the quoted BSA statement on "God" at all, despite having been asked -- and challenged -- to do so), you must also be assuming that BSA does not really mean it when they say that any higher power will do. I say this because I respect your intellect enough (having read many dozens of your posts attacking Scouting) to dismiss out-of-hand your suggestion that belief in the power of humanity, collectively, is "belief in a higher power" in the sense that that term is used. No one at BSA has ever said anything to support such a strained definition, and the question is,, "What does BSA mean," not what I or Lambert or you, Brian, mean.

 

Brian posts:

"Are you an atheist and a Buddhist? You could be a test case if you are. I don't know if the national BSA has ever had to address this situation directly."

 

Nope. I'm just a poor excuse for a Methodist, who has Scouted in units with Uu's, Bahai, Buddists, Shinto, Jews, Muslims, "Hindus," one kid who insisted for a couple of years that he was a pagan (about the time "Conan the Barbarian came out), and, I am sure/odds are, with those with no beliefs in any higher power whatsoever. They all help up their right hands, made the Sign, and took the Oath.

 

Brian posts:

"'Does not!" isn't much of a comeback. Brian.'

 

That hasn't BEEN my comeback. I keep showing instances of atheists getting kicked out, and official BSA statements that atheists can't be members, and you keep ignoring them."

Brian, you have not show a single instance of an atheist with a belief in a "higher power" being ousted. The only example you brought up where I can find details was Lambert, and he refused to acknowledge any "higher power." He was, at least at that point in his young life, strong in his non-belief in any spiritual world.

 

Brian posted:

"The way your question is phrased made it sound like you thought I was arguing that only members of Abrahamic religions can be members; in any case, I haven't been arguing that. By the way, no, I don't think it would be better. But it wouldn't surprise me very much."

Sorry for the confusion. And I am sure you expect the worst from an organization you oppose so strongly and in often, may I say, colorful terms.

 

Brain posts:

"I'll take that as a "No."

 

You will take it as you will. If I haven't made my position clear to an objective reader -- or even to you, shame on me. (Not that I think I'm objective. I can only struggle in that direction.)

[GernBlansten]

The issue here between TAHAWK and Merlyn is what I find very perplexing in the BSA stance on athiests.

 

BSA acknowledges and celebrates Buddhists (as they should). BSA says athiests can't be the best citizens and not allowed to join (see DRP). Most Buddhists are athiests.

 

Seems to me that BSA didn't do much research on Buddhism when they came up with the DRP which controls the atheism issue. Atheism is the primary issue on BSA being banned from government resources and when it, the BSA, pushed the issue by banning athiests, lost the ability to charter thousands of units through public schools.

 

So the net result is BSA has sanctioned atheists in their ranks through Buddhism, yet have ousted unaffiliated athiests causing problems in chartering and use of public resources. Talk about who has a problem! Its BSA. Either toss the Buddhists out, or come to grips with the atheist issue.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk writes:

You assert that certain things are true, or will be true - things contrary to quoted, very express BSA policy on the subject of what "Duty to God" and "reverent" require.

 

Things that are stated quite plainly on the bsalegal.org. And the BSA gets to define what "Duty to God" and "reverent" requires as far as the BSA is concerned.

 

And if only MOST Buddhists are atheists, the presence of Buddhists in the BSA doesn't show that atheists can be in the BSA.

[DanKroh]

Tahawk,

 

"'There is no national Wiccan organization,' Shields said. 'So, that's why there is no religious award for Wiccans.'"

 

There is a national Wiccan organization, Covenant of the Goddess. They even developed curricula for both Cub Scout and Boy Scout level awards. There is no religious award approved by the BSA for Wiccans because after CoG jumped through all the hoops that *were* there, the BSA created another hoop they couldn't jump through, the rule that they had to have 25 units chartered.

 

"He encouraged any Wiccan group that would like to charter a troop in their community to submit an application to their local BSA council for consideration."

 

Yeah, right. Excuse me, but what a load of horseapples. Wiccan and other Pagan groups are regularly turned down as chartering orgs. That's why the bogus "Rule of 25" is so effective.

 

"You could always contact this Assistant Scoutmaster and ask her about it:"

 

I notice it doesn't say where Rev. Griffith's troop is chartered to. I'd be very surprised if it was to a Pagan group. I also noticed that to get all her impressive credentials, she went through a Catholic Archdiocese. Very interesting, that. Also note, the Correlian church where she is studying are the ones who started Spiral Scouts, because of the runaround the BSA gave the CoG.

 

"I hear there's a Norse pagan troop in Utah, of all palces."

 

Well, if an Asatru group in Utah managed to get a charter, more power to them, but they are very much the exception, not the rule.

[Eagledad]

>>Either toss the Buddhists out, or come to grips with the atheist issue.

[DanKroh]

Correction, it was the Aquarian Tabernacle that started Spiral Scouts, not Correllian Nativist Church. My bad.

[GernBlansten]

Consistency is important when dealing with issues that have a strong impact on your organization.

Being wishy washy on how you implement a policy doesn't make much sense when that policy is what is causing such strife in the ability to reach youth.

The whole Buddhist/atheist issue is just such a consistency problem.

 

To be consistent, they must either drop the DRP, allow for local options on implementing the DRP, or kick out the atheist Buddhists.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The Asatru troop was Troop 1239 in the Great Salt Lake council, chartered by the Eagles Kindred Asatru Alliance. It apparently existed from at least 1999 but doesn't seem to have been around in 2005. The original web page about their chartering no longer exists, but the Wayback machine has a copy:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050409211511/eagle.webpipe.net/scouts.htm

 

The website eagle.webpipe.net still exists, so eagle (at) webpipe.net might be able to tell you more.

 

It goes back to at least 1999 because this message from early 2000 references it:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HeathenParenting/message/19

 

My list of Utah troops from 2005 doesn't show it, though.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad writes:

I can personally name names of boys from atheist families that would not have had the opportunity to participate in scouts if they weren't in schools at the time.

 

How did boys from atheist families have the opportunity to participate in scouts? Were the boys themselves atheists, or just their families? And by "in the schools," do you mean school-chartered?

[Eagledad]

>>The whole Buddhist/atheist issue is just such a consistency problem.

[Eagledad]

>>How did boys from atheist families have the opportunity to participate in scouts? Were the boys themselves atheists, or just their families? And by "in the schools," do you mean school-chartered?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

That is why I know what we read here on the forum is not a reflection of the general atheist community.

 

You can't legitimately conclude that your experiences with a few atheists applies to most atheists; that's just anecdotal evidence. You'd need a decently conducted survey to determine the attitude of the "general atheist community."

 

It sounds like the kids involved were willing to make a promise to do their 'duty to god,' so either they weren't atheists or they were and didn't care. Now, if one of them was excluded, you might get a reaction.

 

The units were asked to stop meeting and recruiting in public schools.

 

If other outside groups can meet in the school, they can't keep scout groups out, and the same with recruiting if other outside groups can recruit. I don't think even "asking" would be proper if other groups are allowed in.

[TAHAWK]

Dan,

 

Maybe you went deeper into Google than I did ("wiccan OR wiccans scout OR scouts OR bsa") or have knowledge otherwise, but while I found several references to wiccans being denied unit charters, not one reference had a who, what, when, or where -- much less a why. Perhaps you can share details if you know or have access to them.

 

As I recall the 25 unit rule, it was announced in the early 90's. There WAS talk at the time of Wiccans being involved, but also one-church protestant denominations. IIRC the Crystal Cathedral was involved (two blocks from where I grew up), and at least one predominately African-American denomination that claimed they were denied their own religious award on racial grounds. Again, you may have more details.

 

As for Covenant of the Goddess itself, is it not more accurate to say that it ASPIRES to be the umbrella organization for all Wiccans? As in, does Universal Federation of Pagans, New Wicca Church, Pagan Allliance, Circle Sanctuary, or Sacred Well acknowledge CoG as their parent organization or representative? I don't know. I just found them via Google, claimed to be organizations that bring Wiccan covens together.

 

Also interesting that CoG's religious award was proposed by CoG not merely as an award for Wiccans, but also for Druids, Asatru and Native Americans. Isn't that like the Greek Orthodox Church proposing that they set the standards and issue an award for all Orthodox churches? What would the Druids say about that?

 

EagleDad seems right to point out that Buddhist Scouting does not get discussed routinely. I am probably the only Scouter in my District who ever had Buddhist Scouts - or Bahai for that matter. But if "atheists" are all those who do not worship a creator divinity, THEN BSA does not make things very clear when one compares the legal site and DRP, on one hand, and the official instructions for Boards of Review and statments quoted above about the acceptabiliy of pantheism from in the Lambert case, on the other. (Produces some of the same effects as teaching Leave No Trace and felling, limbing, and bucking in the same course.)