Pagan Scouts

[TAHAWK]

Brian, I'm am not sorry to accurately report the directions for Boards of Review from Scouting.Org, especially given their application to the Lambert case.

 

I know how the words "reverent" and "duty to God" have actually been applied in three different councils over decades.

 

I know Buddhists have been Scouts at least from 1954 forward.

 

I know other non-theists are accepted as members.

 

I know the religious awards of non-theists are recognized by the BSA.

 

It suits your argument to cite the words that you cite, to ignore others, and to ignore the facts on the ground - that professing nontheists have been, and are, admitted to full membership in the BSA.

 

Your argument pushes you to ignore the official statements that "God" does not necessarily mean the God I was taught to worship.

 

Mr. Lambert's case hardly advances your argument. He was not denied membership because he was not a theist. He was asked about meeting his religious duties at a Board of Review and said he did not believe in such a duty. (Perhaps he had not noticed the words in the Oath and Law.)

 

The very article you link includes the statement by a relevant "Scouting official" that Mr. Lambert, in 2002, need only have acknowledged some "higher power":

 

"On membership applications, Boy Scouts and adult leaders must say they recognize some higher power, not necessarily religious. 'Mother Nature would be acceptable,' Farmer said.'

. . .

"It can be part of subscribing to a structured religionor a more amorphous faith in some presence greater than ourselves.

 

Mr. Lambert would not agree to even that, acknowedging no "higher power" beyond homo sap collective: I think the only higher power than myself is the power of all of us combined, Lambert told King."

 

This was his right. It excluded him from membrship in the BSA.

 

You have quite accurately quoted words from the legal site maintained "on behalf of" the BSA -- whatever "atheist" means to them. But when any words there conflict, or appear to conflict, with statements by the BSA, I take it that the latter controls over the former, especially when some professing non-theists have been accepted by Scouting for generations and are still, to this very date, accepted.

 

And who does that irritate more, Brian?(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk, try this test:

1) inform BSA national of a BSA member who is an atheist. They can be a Buddhist too, just as long as they're an atheist.

2) See if national removes their membership

 

BSA national has been pretty consistent of removing the memberships of atheists, and their official statements say that atheists can't be members. Your argument isn't with me, it's with BSA national.

[ScoutersMom]

First of all... since when did atheists become pagans?

 

Excerpt taken from BSA website:

 

++++Faith Traditions

 

Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition. We acknowledge that faith can become an important part of a child's identity. Each of the major faiths breeds hope, optimism, compassion, and a belief in a better tomorrow. Scouting encourages each young person to begin a spiritual journey through the practice of his or her faith tradition. One of the key tenets of Scouting is "duty to God". While Scouting does not define religious belief for its members, it has been adopted by and works with youth programs of all major faiths.+++++

 

BSA has been adopted by all major faiths... not the other way around. It is the 'faiths' that are supposed to adapt to BSA.. not the other way around. They need to find a way to fit the BSA into their lives... The BSA shouldn't have to find a way to fit into religion.

 

BSA requires FAITH... didn't say in which aspect of God you want to argue... Atheists have NO FAITH... therefore it is inherently impossible for them to adhere to BSA principles

 

I believe this supports my previous post. BSA does not define any aspect of 'God'. BSA allows each scout to practice what he is taught at home as long as it supports BSA principles. Who says being 'reverent' only pertains to Christianity? God can be different to many people.

Isn't it enough that the boys are in scouting? Learning ethics and morals and spirituality? Why can't it just be enough?

[OldGreyEagle]

"It is the 'faiths' that are supposed to adapt to BSA.. not the other way around. They need to find a way to fit the BSA into their lives... The BSA shouldn't have to find a way to fit into religion."

 

Yet that is exactly the relationship between LDS and the BSA. The BSA has altered their boy scout program to fit that faith and has a program that is virtually for only the LDS, the Varsity Program.

 

I support the BSA, but they are not always as consistent as they might

 

[TAHAWK]

So, Brian, you are down to, "They must not know Buddhists are not theists or they wouldn't allow Buddhist units, Buddist Scouts, Buddhist Scouters, and Buddhist religious awards.

 

From BSA's site:

 

"Scouting in the Buddhist Community

 

Overview

Scouting serves an important role in youth development in the Buddhist community. Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, Varsity Scout teams, and Venturing crews chartered to Buddhist organizations can be found throughout the United States. Scouts can participate within units chartered to Buddhist organizations or as members of units chartered to other organizations.

 

Buddhist youth have participated in Scouting for more than 80 years. Since 1920, with the formation of Troop 4 by the Fresno Buddhist Church, young Buddhists in America have enjoyed the benefits of Scouting.

 

Organization

The Buddhist Churches of America administers the religious emblems program for all Buddhist denominations in America. Founded in 1899, the Buddhist Churches of America is affiliated with Jodo Shinshu Hongwanji-ha in Kyoto, Japan. The Buddhist Churches of America National Committee on Scouting works with the religious leaders of the Buddhist community to develop the Buddhist religious program.

 

The National Buddhist Committee on Scouting works closely with the religious relationships director of the Boy Scouts of America to promote a harmonious relationship between all religious denominations and organizations.

 

Religious Emblems

Any registered Scout who has fulfilled all of the requirements for the Metta emblem or Sangha emblem can receive the recognition appropriate to his course of study.

 

Metta Emblem. Metta is a Buddhist term meaning loving kindness and goodwill. This word was selected as the name for the Cub Scout religious emblem with the hope of nurturing boys to relate to all things with loving kindness and goodwill.

 

Sangha Emblem. Sangha means Buddhist brotherhood. The Sangha emblem program gives the Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, and Venturer practical guidance in achieving the spiritual pledge made in the Scout Oath and Law, through the application of Buddhist teachings. The program teaches the basic tenets of Buddhism as they relate to the activities of daily life. The program stresses the importance of both harmonious relationships and the universal brotherhood of all living beings.

 

The Goal of Buddhism

The goal of all Buddhists is enlightenment through understanding of the reasons and causes of suffering. Awareness of impermanence and of oneself and compassion toward others are basic and essential elements of Buddhism.

 

Buddhist Practices

The fundamental doctrine of Buddhism is the Four Noble Truths, which are:

 

Noble Truth of Suffering

Noble Truth of the Cause of Suffering

Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering

Noble Truth of the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering

The last of the Four Noble Truths is also referred to as the Noble Eightfold Path, which is another basic foundation of Buddhism.

 

The Noble Eightfold Path is the practice of

 

Right Views

Right Thoughts

Right Speech

Right Conduct

Right Livelihood

Right Effort

Right Mindfulness

Right Meditation

 

For more information, contact your local Buddhist temple or write the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting, Buddhist Churches of America, 701 East Thrift Ave., Kingsland, GA 31548-5222; phone 912-729-6323; fax 912-729-1699; e-mail viwamura@sbcglobal.net; Web page: www.geocities.com/bcascout"

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk, their websites and official spokesman have been saying for years that atheists can't be members; are you saying the BSA is wrong about its own policies?

 

Also, Victor Iwamura, the chair of the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting, is still trying to "influence the powers that be" on the issue of Buddhists omitting 'god':

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting.issues/msg/15ed2e62c872ccad

 

If atheist Buddhists aren't a problem in the BSA, why does the chair of the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting describe trying to influence the BSA on this as a "difficult struggle"?

[CalicoPenn]

Re: the Lambert discussion

 

"The very article you link includes the statement by a relevant "Scouting official" that Mr. Lambert, in 2002, need only have acknowledged some "higher power":

 

"On membership applications, Boy Scouts and adult leaders must say they recognize some higher power, not necessarily religious. 'Mother Nature would be acceptable,' Farmer said.'"

 

based on the above, it sounds as if the BSA will accept ANY definition of a higher power and yet:

 

"Mr. Lambert would not agree to even that, acknowedging no "higher power" beyond homo sap collective: I think the only higher power than myself is the power of all of us combined, Lambert told King."

 

In seems as if Lambert is acknowledging a higher power - the power of all people combined.

 

So if we accept that Lambert is acknowledging a higher power, and yet he was still tossed out, then we must accept that the BSA statement that they'll accept any higher power is, well...BS.

 

Further:

 

"Mr. Lambert's case hardly advances your argument. He was not denied membership because he was not a theist. He was asked about meeting his religious duties at a Board of Review and said he did not believe in such a duty. (Perhaps he had not noticed the words in the Oath and Law.)"

 

This statement actually advances Merlyn's argument. Who else but an athiest would state they have no religious duty? As only an athiest would make that claim as it is a central belief of an athiest, then the BSA tossed him out for professing his belief which he comes by as an athiest. They tossed him out because he was an athiest.

 

Calico

[TAHAWK]

Brian posts:

"Tahawk, their websites and official spokesman have been saying for years that atheists can't be members; are you saying the BSA is wrong about its own policies?"

 

Brian, I am saying that, for me, the BSA site's language and the BSA's conduct since 1920 control over the statements on the lawyer's site "on behalf of" the BSA. If you don't agree, that's your decision, but I think I have the better argument.

 

You might directly discuss what BSA says and the implication of 88 years of Buddhist Scouting.

 

Brian posts:

"Also, Victor Iwamura, the chair of the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting, is still trying to "influence the powers that be" on the issue of Buddhists omitting 'god':

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting.issues/msg/15ed2e62c872ccad

 

If atheist Buddhists aren't a problem in the BSA, why does the chair of the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting describe trying to influence the BSA on this as a "difficult struggle"?"

 

Perhaps some Buddhists have a problem with the BSA's use of "God" because they clearly do not believe in a deity. However, I thought the question was whether BSA has a problem with non-theists. Clearly, by continuing, over 88 years to accept Buddhist (and, more recently Jainist and non-theist Hindus) as members, by chartering untis to non-theists, and by recognizing the religious awards of non-theistic denominations, the BSA shows what its poicy and practice actually is.

 

I would personally prefer a more sensitive treatment of Buddhism by allowing a variation in the Oath, although I have personally observed that Buddhists are, due to the tenants of their faith, very difficult to offend and very ready to forgive.

 

Calico posts:

"'Mr. Lambert would not agree to even that, acknowedging no "higher power" beyond homo sap collective: I think the only higher power than myself is the power of all of us combined, Lambert told King."

 

I[t] seems as if Lambert is acknowledging a higher power - the power of all people combined.

 

So if we accept that Lambert is acknowledging a higher power, and yet he was still tossed out, then we must accept that the BSA statement that they'll accept any higher power is, well...BS."

 

 

I do not accept that Lambert was acknowledging a "higher power." In common usage, a "higher power" refers to some force, influence, or agency power, beyond mankind - individually or collectively, such as Dharma for Buddhists and Jains.

 

So, to me, the G may be a "higher authority," but it's not a "higher power."

 

I hope always to allow that disagreement may be based on differences in understanding, not to condemn such differences as "BS."

 

Calico posts:

"This statement actually advances Merlyn's argument. Who else but an athiest would state they have no religious duty? As only an athiest would make that claim as it is a central belief of an athiest, then the BSA tossed him out for professing his belief which he comes by as an athiest. They tossed him out because he was an athiest."

 

I was not clear.

 

My understanding of the facts, from his description of what happened and the statements of "Scout officials," is that BSA tossed Lambert out because he would not agree that he had ANY religious or spiritual duty whatsoever. He would not acknowledge -- however broadly or indistinctly or informally or individually -- any "higher power." Had he said he was a Jain, an atheist, he would have passed. Had he said that he saw some non-theistic higher power in "nature," he would have passed. He was firm in his non-belief. It was his SORT of atheism that led to his being shown the door, not atheism per se.

 

Nevertheless, he wanted all the benefits as if he meant something all those years when he affirmed his duty to "God," and swore that he would be "reverent."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk, BSA officials have testified under oath that atheists can't join. Are they guilty of perjury?

 

In any case, you appear to agree that the BSA has religious membership requirements, and that some people are rejected if they don't meet them.

[TAHAWK]

Brian, I can't hope to answer your first question.

 

If someone testifies under oath to a fact and that witness knows the testimony to be false, they have commtted perjury.

 

I don't know what these witnesses knew or believed to be true or what THEY meant by "atheists."

 

But if the issue is whether "atheists" as I understand that word literally --those who no not believe in a theistic diety -- are admitted to Scouting, the answer is that they have been for 88 years -- and still are.

 

As to your second, rhetorical question, obviously there are religious or spiritual requirements to join Scouting. Given who sponsors units (and we know how that has changed over the last few years - and why), those requirements are unlikely to go away, however abhorent you find them to be.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk writes:

But if the issue is whether "atheists" as I understand that word literally --those who no not believe in a theistic diety -- are admitted to Scouting, the answer is that they have been for 88 years -- and still are.

 

Only if the national BSA doesn't know about them. That doesn't mean it's official policy.

[TAHAWK]

Excuse me? I quoted the language from the BSA's website that shows that Buddhist Scouts are part of Boy Scouting and describes their beliefs. No mention of God or any deity by any other name there. Are you know arguing that BSA doesn't know what's on its own website?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk writes:

Excuse me? I quoted the language from the BSA's website that shows that Buddhist Scouts are part of Boy Scouting and describes their beliefs. No mention of God or any deity by any other name there. Are you know arguing that BSA doesn't know what's on its own website?

 

Are you arguing that the BSA doesn't know what their own legal website says, or what their own BSA representatives have stated in court under oath?

 

And why would a description of Buddhism which omitted mentions of gods or any deities by any other names allow the BSA to assume that every Buddhist is an atheist? There are religions where god-belief is not a tenet of that religion and is left up to the individual followers.

[TAHAWK]

Brian, I already addressed that issue. While I don't think BSA gets off blaimless for the site the lawyers maintain "on behalf" of Scouting, I continue to believe that the BSA's site and the BSA's conduct trump what the lawyers say on their site -- to the extent that you read "atheist" to mean non-theistic religions like Buddhism. I find that, often, "atheist" is, inaccurately, taken to mean void of all religious belief, not that a lawyer weould ever use the wrong word. Never that!

 

But, Brian, you continue to refuse to discuss what the BSA says on tis site.

 

You also continue to refuse to address the presence of Buddhists in Scouting for far longer than yuo have been alive.

 

You will not address the presence of Jains and non-theists witnin Scouting.

 

Is making your point more inportant than the actual conduct of the organization that you dislike so strongly. Would it be better, somehow, if BSA actually did exclude everyone except "People of the Book"?

 

 

I do not see the relevance of you last statement at all. Probably just me. I thought the issue between us was whether BSA excludes those who follow non-theistic religions. Even if SOME Buddhists are theists (could be/don't know) the fact that all Buddhists are welcome argues that BSA does not exclude solely on the basis that one is not a theist.

 

And how about Jains and expressly non-theist Hundus?

 

BUT O GET BACK TO THE OT:

 

How about Wiccans?

 

"According to BSA spokesman Gregg Shields, religious emblems are the property of approved religious scouting organizations and are awarded at their own discretion. For example, he said the National Catholic Council on Scouting and the National Jewish Committee on Scouting each have their own unique religious emblem.

 

'There is no national Wiccan organization,' Shields said. 'So, that's why there is no religious award for Wiccans.'

 

He encouraged any Wiccan group that would like to charter a troop in their community to submit an application to their local BSA council for consideration."

 

 

You could always contact this Assistant Scoutmaster and ask her about it:

 

"The Reverend Pamela Griffith, Previous Temple Director (Retired)

The Reverend Pamela Griffith started on the Wiccan path over 40 years ago even though she was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church and attended Catholic Elementary School. Her paternal grandmother taught her how to read tarot and was and still is her guide on the path. She lived with her grandmother for a short period of time before her death and was constantly amazed at her knowledge of folk remedies and the way she just knew things. Over the years, Reverend Griffiths path diverted many times, sometimes coming to a halt. She was a commissioned Youth Minister, Catechist, Extra Ordinary Eucharistic Minister and Hospital Chaplain all through the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore. She is a wife, mother (of three adult children) and grandmother (at this time three granddaughters). She is active with the Boy Scouts of America as an Assistant Scoutmaster, Webelos Leader, Unit Commissioner, Merit Badge Councilor and Religious Emblems Councilor. She was initiated to the First Degree of Clerical Status through the Correllian Nativist Tradition at their Spring Lustration in Hoopeston, IL in 2004, and is now working on her Second Degree. Recently, she was elected as the moderator of the Washington-Baltimore Pagan Clergy Association. In addition to being the Chief Financial Officer for a small energy company, she has her own catering firm (Shamrock Knights), and Mary Kay Cosmetics business. Residing in Baltimore, MD, she loves to cook, sew and do crafts, especially with her grandchildren."

 

Gotta watch out for those those polytheists in Scouting too.

 

 

I hear there's a Norse pagan troop in Utah, of all palces.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk writes:

to the extent that you read "atheist" to mean non-theistic religions like Buddhism.

 

But I'm not doing that at all. The only thing I'm saying is that official BSA policy at national is to kick out atheists. If you're a Buddhist and an atheist, BSA national will kick you out for being an atheist. If you're Jewish and an atheist, they'll kick you out for being an atheist.

 

But, Brian, you continue to refuse to discuss what the BSA says on tis site.

 

Which site? bsalegal.org is as much a BSA site as scouting.org

 

You also continue to refuse to address the presence of Buddhists in Scouting for far longer than yuo have been alive.

 

Not at all. Yes, Buddhists have been in scouting a long time. This does not somehow negate the BSA's official policy that atheists can't be members. Those are two different statements.

 

Is making your point more inportant than the actual conduct of the organization that you dislike so strongly.

 

The "actual conduct" of the organization is to refuse membership to atheists. They refused the Randall twins and went to court. They testified in the Powell case that atheists couldn't join. When David Wise testfied in the Welsh case and mentioned that he, too, was an atheist, HE was kicked out. Brad Seabourn was kicked out for being an atheist.

 

Would it be better, somehow, if BSA actually did exclude everyone except "People of the Book"?

 

Now you aren't even making sense. "People of the book" is typically a Muslim term referring to Christians and Jews, so I'll suppose you're asking if it would be better if "BSA actually" restricted membership to followers of Abrahamic religions.

 

But that doesn't resemble at all what I've been saying. I've been saying that the BSA kicks out atheists. There are plenty of people who are NOT "people of the book" and who are NOT atheists, so your question doesn't relate to anything I've been saying.

 

I thought the issue between us was whether BSA excludes those who follow non-theistic religions.

 

That isn't what I thought the issue was.

 

I thought the issue was whether official BSA policy is to refuse membership to atheists.

 

Please note it's possible to be a member of a religion and be an atheist. Being a member of a religion does not erase the possibility of being an atheists.

 

ALSO note that it's possible to be a member of a religion that does not require belief in a god, yet some members of that religion CAN believe in gods.

 

And how about Jains and expressly non-theist Hundus?

 

Are there any who BSA national knows to be atheists, yet allows them to keep their memberships? I'd genuinely like to know, as that would be significant.

 

Gotta watch out for those those polytheists in Scouting too.

 

If the BSA decides to interpret their DRP to exclude polytheists (which they could, of course), then yes.