Pagan Scouts

[TAHAWK]

Mr. LeRoy, perhaps you explain to a relative newcomer how your posts in this thread are part of an effort to prevent violation of the law by the BSA. Is this an effort, for example, to reach decision-makers at the BSA and to convince them to different behavior from that which you attribute to them?

 

My belief is that the BSA does not require theism, much less monotheism. If it did, BSA would not charter Buddhist units nor recognize a Buddhist religious award.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

my posts in this forum are not how I oppose illegal acts by the BSA; I worked with the ACLU to end charters to discriminatory BSA units by government entities, but as the Maryland DNR Venture Crew shows, the BSA hasn't quite lived up to their promise to recharter all such units.

 

BSA officials have stated a number of times that theism is a requirement for membership. My remark about whether the BSA allows polytheists to be members was in response to John-In-KC, pointing out that the DRP could easily be interpreted to exclude polytheists, and the BSA can decide to interpret any of their requirements to exclude pretty much anyone they want.

[TAHAWK]

"my posts in this forum are not how I oppose illegal acts by the BSA; I worked with the ACLU to end charters to discriminatory BSA units by government entities, but as the Maryland DNR Venture Crew shows, the BSA hasn't quite lived up to their promise to recharter all such units.

 

BSA officials have stated a number of times that theism is a requirement for membership. My remark about whether the BSA allows polytheists to be members was in response to John-In-KC, pointing out that the DRP could easily be interpreted to exclude polytheists, and the BSA can decide to interpret any of their requirements to exclude pretty much anyone they want"

 

Well, your first post says something about what you are not doing here. But why ARE you here?

 

I guess over the decades I have seen "BSA officials" say things that were not accurate -- also U.S. Presidents, university presidents, media figures, UN officals, and ACLU officials. And folks can always "interpret" language to fit their beliefs or prejudices or hatreds. However, BSA has allowed non-theists to be members -- at least since I joined in 1954, and BSA offically recognizes their religious awards -- and did in 1954 IIRC. That would seem to be that, so far as theism being required goes.

[Trevorum]

tahawk, Merlyn is correct: BSA official have stated repeatedly that theism *IS* a requirement for membership. Except, of course, for Buddhists, whom BSA evidently doesn't think are really atheists. Maybe BSA thinks there are "good" atheists and "bad" atheists?

[TAHAWK]

"tahawk, Merlyn is correct: BSA official have stated repeatedly that theism *IS* a requirement for membership. Except, of course, for Buddhists, whom BSA evidently doesn't think are really atheists. Maybe BSA thinks there are "good" atheists and "bad" atheists?"

 

But there is no such requirement in fact.

 

I think Scouting still struggles with defining "reverent" and "duty to God" without offending some within Scouting. Some feel their particular religious view is correct to the exclusion of all others. They explicitly or implicitly weave their view into speaking about "reverent."

 

While ignoring the elephant in the living room is a proven human ability, Buddhists, Jainists, and non-theist Hindus are in Scouting and their religious awards are recognized by Scouting. Therefore, for anyone to say that Scouting requires theism in its members is simply inaccurate. Not sure who that bothers more, theists or other atheists.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Here's what the official BSA legal website says:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp

 

Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

 

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and self.

 

Tahawk writes:

Buddhists, Jainists, and non-theist Hindus are in Scouting and their religious awards are recognized by Scouting. Therefore, for anyone to say that Scouting requires theism in its members is simply inaccurate.

 

BSA reps have stated under oath in court that atheists cannot be members. I think the BSA doesn't realize that Buddhists, Jainists, Hindus, Jews, etc. can also be atheists.

[Gold Winger]

" Maryland DNR Venture Crew shows, the BSA hasn't quite lived up to their promise to recharter all such units."

 

You know, I read that website that you linked to and nowhere did it say that the DNR chartered the crew. Maybe you have access to other documentation.

[Gold Winger]

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes, I do. BSA's website:

http://www.scouting.org/venturing/venturinglocator.aspx

Look up zip code 21401; Crew 202 is chartered by "Md Dept of Natural Resources"

[epalmer84]

Regarding Youthscouts: According to the California Secretary of State, Youthscouts are no longer a registered business. I first noted this in Jan 2008.

 

http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C2504695&printer=yes

 

Some of the other organizations formed in response to the policies of the BSA and GSUSA:

 

* American Heritage Girls

* Frontier Girls

* SpiralScouts International

* Adventure Scouts USA (formerly StarScouting America, but I still see no evidence of members)

* Navigators USA

 

I was not aware of Camp Quest, but they only offer a summer camp program I'm not sure I would classify them as a Scout-like movement.

http://www.camp-quest.org/

 

Ed Palmer

[DanKroh]

" "The other group accepts the membership policies but wants the BSA to abide by the laws governing them as a 'private religious organization'. "

 

What are some of the laws that BSA does not abide by?"

 

I think you would have to ask someone who belonged to the aforementioned group. But I believe their major point of contention is the BSA continuing to both solicite and accept government support that they are not allowed to get as a private organization that discriminates against federally-defined protected groups.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[ScoutersMom]

From my understanding, BSA requires 'duty to god'. I think pretty much everyone can agree with that. But where is 'god' defined? Where does it mandate that god must be singular? Where does it stipulate that 'god' must be male?

I know, in my pack, there are a couple of children being raised Wiccan in their home. When it came to the 'duty to god' achievement I had a little sit down with the parents and addressed the different parts of the achievement with them. While looking at the pages I see that the BSA does allow for alternate religions. I believe the BSA supports Faith. Belief in something, anything, is good enough. To quote some of the books.. "Practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or religious fellowship". The parents were OK with my interpretation and were more than happy to adapt this section to fit their lives.

While it is unfortunate that there is no emblem for Wiccan scouts to earn, I don't believe that should be the main focus. A scout shouldn't be learning about faith just so they can get recognition for it.

I can certainly understand why this is such a touchy subject, but I see no reason for it to take the focus off the rest BSA has to offer our scouts. Religion/Faith is only 1 achievement of the other dozens they have to complete. Just focus on the others.

 

Just my opinion.

[TAHAWK]

Mr. LeRoy writes:

 

Here's what the official BSA legal website says:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp

 

'Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

 

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and self.'

 

. . .

 

BSA reps have stated under oath in court that atheists cannot be members. I think the BSA doesn't realize that Buddhists, Jainists, Hindus, Jews, etc. can also be atheists."

 

Mr. LeRoy, we had Buddhist Scouts in my Troop in 1954. I suspect that however slow some might be, the fact that Buddhists recognize no supreme creator has probably come to the attention of the BSA in fifty-four years.

 

In any event, and I'm sure someone with your focus on this issue knows, the instructions for Boards of Review state:

 

"The Boy Scouts of America does not define God for a Scout, nor does it interpret God's rules. Those are matters, as said above, left to home and to the religious body to which the Scout belongs. The board of review does not serve as an inquisition into the correctness of a Scout's perceptions, rather it seeks to determine whether the Scout has fulfilled his duty in a way he sees fit, keeping in mind his profession of a particular faith.

 

Discussion of a Scout's religion is very appropriate at a board of review, but it should be done with respect and appreciation for the variety of faiths and beliefs in the United States. An open-ended question like "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" will allow the boy to discuss his religious beliefs. A blunt "Do you believe in God?" should be avoided as there are some religions that do not use the name "God" for their supreme being or higher power.

 

A Scout may fulfill this duty without being a member of a particular denomination or religion. In these cases, a board will want to understand, through informal discussion, what a Scout feels about this particular duty, how he sees himself in relation to his beliefs, and how he fulfills them. It is very common for adolescent boys to question religion, particularly formal religion. If a candidate indicates that he is not certain about religion, the board should ask how he is trying address his uncertainty and to fulfill his duty to God."

 

In short, ScoutersMom nailed it. Theism is not the test and has not been for a couple of generations.

 

Still don't know whom this bothers the most.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tahawk writes:

In short, ScoutersMom nailed it. Theism is not the test and has not been for a couple of generations.

 

Sorry, the current BSA leadership insists theism IS the test now. Their official legal web page plainly states that atheists and agnostics can't be members. Sure, there are atheists unknown to BSA national in the BSA, but they get kicked out when they're found out. You'll also notice that in all the material you quoted, atheism is not indicated as acceptable.

 

For just one example, Darrell Lambert was kicked out in 2002:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/RINVol6No2/Irreverent%20Eagle.htm