LA Fire Dept. closer to dropping Learning for Life

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Did you even read the article Gonzo1? The Fire Dept. is ready to create their own program, and since they operate the current program, it would look about the same. It just wouldn't be conducted through the BSA.

[Gonzo1]

Gern: "Gonzo, if allowing gays and athiests into LFL doesn't spoil the program, why do you think it would spoil the traditional BSA programs?"

 

Because gays and atheists are not allowed. Period, that's it. It's called Boy Scouts of America. Not Boy and Girl Scouts, BSA has for decided what will be admission requirements, not you Gern (or Merlyn). No gays allowed, no girls allowed and no atheists. Again, if that doesn't make you happy, go start your own group or go join another, like Spiral Scouts or Campfire (they used to be Campfire Girls but later admitted boys) or some other group. LFL is a way to reach other youth without using the Boy Scout programs. Seems like a compromise BSA really didn't have to make.

 

One day about 6 or 7 years ago, I was in a Commissioner training session when the guest speaker came in, he addressed the group. I don't remember his name, but he came from either regional or national. He talked about the "constitutional issues" and said that the BSA stance was (at that time mind you) that if forced to admit girls, gays or atheists, the BSA would shut down instead.

 

Remember my discussion before about the "Tall Dancers Club" and the admission requirements might be to be at least 6 feet tall, have brown hair and participate in social ball room dancing. This group would not be better off by being forced to let in short people with blond hair who didn't dance. Aahh, there would be so-called "diversity" but these new diverse people would not be what the original group wanted. Someone in an earlier thread mentioned something about #42, Jackie Robinson. Clearly, not the same thing, but debated race, Jackie Robinson and Negro Leagues is for another thread someday. I'm not spinning one off.

 

Merlyn, I'm still not talking to you. But, FWIW, I did read the article, the BSA continues to be a private organization......... The bottom line is, you don't have to join. You could if you wanted to, just agree to the policies (rules, admission requirements, DRP, etc.) and come camping! I'll even pour you a cup of coffee.

 

[John-in-KC]

From the article...

Service density:

350 kids across LA county,

about 175 within City of LA

 

A quote:

"to develop an alternative program run by the city. "

 

My thoughts:

OK, LA, fine, develop your own program curriculum, leader guides, safety rules, recognition system, and so on. You'll need to hire your own writer-editors, though. Your LFL license/charter includes the right to use materials developed by LFL and the National Council BSA.

 

So instead of having pre-packaged support for 350 youth, LAFD will probably need to resource several man-years per year to develop and maintain program materials. They'll also need to find opportunities for FUN outside the learning involved of the career path.

 

If this is what's needed to make folks in California happy, fine. They just shouldn't complain about their taxes either, since they're rejecting prepackaged program. This one seems to me law-wise and pound-foolish.

[GernBlansten]

Gonzo, your Tall Dancers Club analogy would be appropriate if the BSA program focused on delivering a program that promoted heterosexuality and theism. There are no requirements beyond the DRP that requires a scout to worship or have any faith. No merit badges, nothing but a vaguely worded oath about duty to God and country. Same goes for heterosexuality.

Now if the Tall Dancers Club had a rule to exclude gays or athiests, yes the analogy would work because the TDC doesn't have any program elements based on theism and sexuality. Like BSA. And in that case, the TDC and the BSA could not use government resources.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

The bottom line is, you don't have to join

 

And LA doesn't have to use LFL. But that doesn't mean "kids are out to do all kinds of evil on the streets;" you make it seem like LFL is the only possible program.

[Gonzo1]

Gern,

I think you're off your rocker. We (the forum) have been over this time and again. The Boy Scouts of America has a set of rule in place. If you don't like it, leave it. You know, I'm not on a witch hunt, but to be honest, if I knew of someone who is a member (youth or adult) and happens to be gay or an atheist, I would make sure their membership is revoked. You can't voluntarily join a club and agree to live by its rule and then not abide by its rules. You can't have it both ways. Tall dancers club ISN'T improved by forcing in short people. BSA is not improved by forcing in gays or atheists. GAYS AND ATHEISTS ARE JUST NOT ALLOWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Merlyn,

You're right Merlyn, LA doesn't have to use LFL. But as John-in-KC points out, it would take a long time for LA (or anyone else) to duplicate what LFL has to offer. So what if LFL is a subsidiary of BSA, program materials in place, recognition programs, insurance, etc, it seems it's a good alternative, doesn't it? But for a few people in California, I guess not.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

as John-in-KC points out, it would take a long time for LA (or anyone else) to duplicate what LFL has to offer.

 

As CalicoPenn pointed out in the earlier thread about this, "these LFL units are Police and Fire Department cadet units - not only does the City (through its individual police and fire stations) sponsor these units, all of the adult leaders are active-duty City of LA police and fire department employees - working out of the station that the cadets meet in. It is extremely unlikely that the City of LA will fold its Police and Fire Cadet programs because all of a sudden, they can't associate with LFL. Interestingly enough, the Commissioners of the LAPD has been pushing for the department to end ties with LFL for a while now, and have been doing so since before this letter from LL. It seems the only reason the department brass can come up with for their reluctance is that their cadets won't be eligible to play in the National Explorer Post competitions anymore - that seems to be the sum total of the benefit they're able to point to. "

 

And LA doesn't like the BSA's rules, so they're leaving, and that includes LFL.

[Gonzo1]

If they don't like it, leave, and that appears to be what they are doing. However, liberals always look to the dollars spent on something and in this case. it will be many man years and many many dollars WASTED to try to re-create (reinvent) the wheel.

 

Ha!

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Some people dislike discrimination so much that they won't associate with a discriminatory organization to save a few bucks. It's called having principles.

[Gold Winger]

"Some people dislike discrimination so much that they won't associate with a discriminatory organization to save a few bucks. It's called having principles. "

 

Considering your belief in human rights and dignity, am I correct in my assumption that you own nothing that was made in China?

[Gonzo1]

Bingo!

[Trevorum]

"... if I knew of someone who is a member (youth or adult) and happens to be gay or an atheist, I would make sure their membership is revoked."

 

//shudder//

 

I'm sure glad you're not in our unit. Or district. Or council.

[Gold Winger]

I'm pretty sure that homosexual youth members are permitted, it is only homosexual adults that are excluded.

[Gonzo1]

Trev,

If a person doesn't qualify for membership, the person doesn't qualify for membership.

 

Are you a veteran? "Back in the day", you know, before "don't ask, don't tell" it was actually asked on enlistment documents if the applicant had engaged in sexual activity with a person of the same sex. If the person answered "YES", the applicant would NOT be allowed to join the military. But if the person answered "NO" and it was discovered later that the had a homosexual past or engaged in homosexual activity later, the person was discharged under Article 83, Fraudulent Enlistment.

 

Again, I said I don't go around listening to the sound of someone's voice, or listen if someone says grace or not, I'm just saying that if it came to my attention, I'd take appropriate action through appropriate channels, the "chain of command" if you will.

 

Trev, I'm glad you're not in my unit, district or council too. I'm sorry you're too spineless to uphold the rules. You don't have to be the gay/atheist cop, just support the program. What if you some adult leader riding you in the back of an open pickup truck??? Would you report it? Let's say you're an ASM and the new SM says "no more pledge of Allegiance, I don't believe in God" Would you report that? Apparently not. You seem to want to pick and choose the rules to follow.

 

If you don't qualify, you don't qualify.

 

GW, I'm pretty sure it applies across the board. No gay scouts, no gay adult leaders. You know, duty to God.(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gold Winger writes:

am I correct in my assumption that you own nothing that was made in China?

 

Perhaps you could list what I own that's made in China.

 

But that has nothing to do with the city of LA distancing itself from the discriminatory BSA by refusing to do business with them.