Pushing the envelope?

[packsaddle]

Gern, I went to Lambert's web site and found out he has the wrong legislation numberlisted for this. Here's the correct number in case anyone wants to read it: HB08-1151. And here's the link: http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2008a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/8A421F7F130D0D7E8725737C007A38FF?Open&file=1151_ren.pdf

Gold Winger, I think you misjudge the gay community. They are very welcoming to open-minded people and I think they would be delighted to have a troop in uniform at one of their parades. I'm liking the idea more and more, AAMOF.

[Gold Winger]

It occurs to me that we need a heterosexual pride parade.

[OldGreyEagle]

"It occurs to me that we need a heterosexual pride parade"

 

They are held every day in the Hospital Maternity Department

[eisely]

I see no harm in this. This vanity plate idea is no worse, and probably better, than some of the other vanity plates I have seen. It is not partisan politics. There is no endorsement of either a candidate or a party.

[OldGreyEagle]

In another vein, I offer this

 

http://www.minsitrails.com/Documents/Newsletter/Jan2008/final.pdf

 

Check page 2, The Executives Corner

 

Dear Scouters,

For the past five summers, Ive had the opportunity to spend a week at Camp Minsi with my son as heparticipated in Boy Scout summer camp. These weeks have taught him a great deal, and have provided

me with some of my best memories. However, we are currently facing a serious challenge at Camp Minsi, and how we respond to this challenge in the upcoming months will determine whether we can continue to operate Camp Minsi in the future.

 

In 2002, the State of Pennsylvanias Department of Environmental Protection (PA DEP) reclassified the dam at Camp Minsi as a B2 High-Hazard Dam. Since then, the camp experienced three 100 year rain

events, resulting in the dam overtopping all three times. One of these overtoppings resulted in a breach in the dam, which has since been repaired. As a result, the PA DEP has informed us that we are required to rebuild the dam to meet higher standards. The estimated cost of these repairs is $3,000,000. Needless to say, the council does not have the funds to enact the repairs. This is where your help is needed. Our councils legislative leaders have been involved for several years in helping us locate federal, state and private funds to help cover the cost of these repairs.

 

Senators Arlen Spector and Robert Casey and Rep. Charlie Dent have been working on the federalfront, and State Senators Robert Mellow, Robert Musto, Pat Browne and Lisa Boscola have been working with all of our State Representatives, including Rep. Mario Scavello, Rep. Mike Carroll, Rep. Doug Reichley and Rep. Jennifer Mann, to secure state funding. Our goal is to secure a state grant, and to match this grant with either federal funds, private contributions, or funds from the sale of a conservation easement on the Camp Minsi property.

 

A conservation easement would insure that the property could not be sold to a developer, and the roceeds from the sale could be used to help pay for the repairs, with the balance placed in the councils endowment fund to help maintain the dam and the rest of the camp for future generations of Scouts. Heres where you come in. In February, 2008, we will be launching a Save Camp Minsi Scout letter-writing campaign geared at asking our legislative leaders and Gov. Rendell to help provide funding to repair the dam. We will be holding special informational meetings about this letter writing campaign at each districts February Roundtable meeting.

 

Our goal is to send 10,000 letters from Scouts and parents to Gov. Rendell and each of our legislative leaders, asking for their help in saving our camp. Sample letters and a roster of these leaders will be

distributed at the February Roundtables, along with a fact sheet about this challenge. Summer camp is an essential method of Scouting, and aquatic activities like swimming, lifesaving, canoeing, rowing, sailing and fishing are essential to summer camp. Without a lake, wed be hard pressed to run a summer camp program at Camp Minsi. Given the tight timetable that the PA DEP has placed on us, we must move

quickly to let our leaders know of the challenge we face. I hope you can join us at our February Roundtables to hear how you can help us overcome this challenge. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or suggestions, and thanks for helping us Save Camp Minsi for future generations of Scouts.

 

This is definetly political, it invovlves getting money to save the dam at a scout camp to save the scout camp. How you feel about this?

[packsaddle]

Someone fronted the money to build the dam in the first place. Who was it? They evidently failed the design part of the project or else cut corners, so now...why should the public pay for that mistake? It is private property. Private funds should be used for the repairs. Period.

[GernBlansten]

OGE, I'd be very unconfortable with that scenario. Public funds to bail out a private organizations camp? Unless of course, they agree that the camp becomes public property and available to all equally.

[skeptic]

The dam has been reclassified by a government agency, resulting in the required repairs/adjustments. Since they did, what is wrong with the cost being subsidized by the government. Another question would be how does the dam effect public useage of the waterway on which it is built? Does it allow public benefit downstream, or act as a cog in flood control? So, there are a number of unknowns from the original post. Certainly, if the dam only serves the camp, then it is pretty questionable, though the issue has arisen due to the government. If their decision is based on safety to the general public, then it also is a public work. And if it is part of a larger system on the stream, and the benefit to the camp is a by product, then it is completely different.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

So if during a routine fire inspection, the local government determined the dining hall to be unfit for occupancy, it would be the governments responsibility to repair it?

[scottteng]

I see no harm in the scouts supporting the vanity plates. In my state the council for the county where the scouting vanity plate is issued gets a portion of the extra fees charged. I seem to recall it was about $20 per tag per year. You know how they get about popcorn and FOS. Let them mobilize the scouts for this effort as well.

[packsaddle]

That government agency is required by law to inspect all dams, public and private, in order to protect the public. Sort of like the inspectors who grade restaurants or food and drugs, or construction for code violations. Why does everyone want a 'free' ride at public expense? Why can't people and private entities take responsibility for themselves?

 

I read the house bill to see the terms of the legislation. As long as the state doesn't subsidize BSA, and as long as the state makes this form of 'speech' available to ALL private organizations (including the KKK, for example), this particular plate seems OK.

[OldGreyEagle]

The dam is over 100 years old, it is a man made lake, at first used for logging and then subsequently for providing ice to New York City and Philadelphia. The Camp fronts about a third of the shore, which unfortunately contains the dam The camp was given to the COuncil in 50's. The State has stated the dam needs to be fixed or it will be drained. Now, if the lake is drained, there is no camp so the COuncil could sell the property and the community could add 400 luxury homes and then have the resultant cost of fire and police protection and increase demand on the school system. The lake is part of the community, it is not private to the camp

[GernBlansten]

Then the community and the scout camp should bear the cost to repair the dam, or drain it. They are the ones who benefit from it.

[RememberSchiff]

Well, if I can sugar-coat it. It is plain dumb that the Scouts own the dam even if the camp was given to them - ESPECIALLY in Pennsylvania. A state inspection done over 6 years ago identified the dam as a hazard and it has already breached. The Scouts own the dam...sounds eerie like another South Fork Dam / Lake Conemaugh / Johnstown Flood. How many gallons in Lake Stillwater? Supposedly, Lake Conemaugh had only 20 million gallons. How many live downhill of this Scout dam?

 

Doesn't matter who benefits from the dam, the maintenance is the responsibility of the dam owner.

 

So unless a hydro-electric/dam upgrade can be made where the dam would pay for it's own upkeep, unload the dam so the Scouts minimize their liability. Consider draining down the lake and then calling a Stillwater Lake community meeting. At that meeting, maybe show that excellent PBS episode on the Johnstown Flood (from David McCullough's book). Expect to pay a share of dam costs with those neighbors to the new dam owner. Spring rain is coming.

 

No such thing as a free lunch.

 

[packsaddle]

Drain the lake, blow the dam, and restore the stream ecosystem. The camp can build a swimming pool. Or else, sell the camp for profit ("...it's all about money").

Otherwise be a responsible member of society and pay for the necessary modifications, sharing the cost with the other private beneficiaries if possible.