Give and Inch; Take a Mile

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

funscout, why are you assuming that all Muslims (or all Muslims connected with the original story) are not from America? About 1/3 of Muslims in the US were born here.

[hops_scout]

I checked Harvard's web site and there is of course no record of this occurring. The page with facility hours on it has not been updated since last fall. I could also find no way to reserve a facility other than for a court at the tennis facility.

 

I know from working at our Rec Center on campus that our Professional Staff does everything it can to only schedule facility rentals for times that will least have an impact on the students' use of the facility. To rent out the whole facility would have to come at a time where it is normally closed. Groups are able to rent out parts, but never the whole thing during regular hours. That is what Harvard has done. They have allowed a small group to bump other people out during regular hours. And now that small group hasn't even used it!!

 

Calico, that's horrible. It's completely wrong what those leaders did. But tell me, what does it have to do with Muslim women getting special treatment at Harvard's Recreation Center?

[DYB-Mike]

Oh wait, this is the heritage of the country, the beliefs that made this country great. America is a European/Christian country; and a very successful one too.

 

So I guess the Native Americans who were here first, the African Americans who were carted over here in chains to work the plantations, and the Chinese who helped to build the transcontinental railroad in the 19th century (just to name a few) can all just pack their bags and leave because it appears you think they have made no contribution to America's greatness?

 

I like America how it was. The European/Christian thing worked pretty damn well.

 

Yes, things were great for the European Christians, unless you were Irish (need not apply), Italian, Eastern European, or, god forbid, ROMAN CATHOLIC! Were still coming down off our high of being able to elect one of Our People as president! Weve come a long way from burning down convents here in Boston.

 

I guess, TheScout, youre unfamiliar with what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty?

 

Calico Penn, I too scratched my head and wondered what this post had to do with scouts but being new to the Forum I just figured anything goes in Issues and Politics.

 

A couple of questions for those who posted:

 

What would your reaction be if the gym set aside a special time for the elderly or disabled to exercise? Would you be upset? Would you care? Would we even be discussing it here?

 

Has anybody thought from the perspective of the devout Muslim women? How they must juggle their schedules to accommodate this little window of opportunity that they have been given?

 

As for the naughty Muslim men leering at the scantly clad exercising females, well, thats a double standard for Muslim women to address. Ill bet many of us good Christian men are probably leering right along with them.

 

As for the intolerance in other nations and cultures, yes, thats wrong, but my mom always told me two wrongs dont make a right. I think we can be proud of ourselves as Americans for being willing to accommodate and assimilate. Those words on the Statue of Liberty again.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[TheScout]

"So I guess the Native Americans who were here first, the African Americans who were carted over here in chains to work the plantations, and the Chinese who helped to build the transcontinental railroad in the 19th century (just to name a few) can all just pack their bags and leave because it appears you think they have made no contribution to America's greatness?"

 

Hmmm. . . well I see very little of what is left of the Native American culture or how they contributed to our greatness. The state of their advances was much lower than that of European civilization. Now, all they do around here is run casions and sell cheap gas after getting their butts kickd by whites. And the Africans and Chinese . . . they were cheap labor, thats it. The same as the little kids in the sweatshops that make our clothes now. They were all directed, and fed, and clothed by white Americans.

 

"Yes, things were great for the European Christians, unless you were Irish (need not apply), Italian, Eastern European, or, god forbid, ROMAN CATHOLIC! Were still coming down off our high of being able to elect one of Our People as president! Weve come a long way from burning down convents here in Boston."

 

Simple Old World antagonisms brought to the New.

 

"I guess, TheScout, youre unfamiliar with what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty?"

 

I am actually quite familiar. And it basically applied to Europeans. Asians were excluded from immigration at that time period. Very few of other peoples even attempted to come. The quota acts of the 1920s showed that America wanted white immigration to keep its demographic character.

[Region 7 Voyageur]

Ummmm, Who owns the gym? Does that private owner have the right to do what they want with that gym? Is this any of our business?

[skeptic]

TheScout:

 

Hopefully you are not teaching what you infer about Asians, Native Americans, and so on to your charges. If so, shame on you.

 

Just because certain races were brought here as laborers, slaves, or were overrun and worn down does not detract from the fact that they have contributed greatly to the country's development. And, as they have slowly been allowed to evolve into more a part of the total population, their contributions have also increased. Intellectually, the Asians are embarrassing the Anglo-European children today. They work harder, and continue to contribute more. And much of the Native American culture is working assiduously to improve themselves (yes, the casinos are part of this), but more importantly to trying to find their roots again, which included respect for the land and its animals, as well as generally living in peace with their surroundings and other tribes. Don't forget that if it was not for the Native Americans on the east coast when the Europeans first came, the earliest settlers would likely have died.

 

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

I find it strange the the politically correct call them "Native Americans" but the Indians refer to themselves either as Indians or by the name of their nation (Cherokee, Navajo, etc.). Why is that?

 

 

[TheScout]

Skeptic,

 

I don't really know what you think I inferred about some peoples. I would consider my statement pretty blunt . . .

 

And anyway teaching history as it was taught for many years before liberals took over the American education establishment is not a shame. There was a time when our schools celebrated the greatness of American and its heritage, not diversity.

 

You do make correct observations about other groups becoming part of the American fabric. However, they all become part of the European Christian culture of America. All our institutions and ideas stem from that.

 

I see very little African, Asian, or Native American influence in any of our institutions. If you can think of any please let me know.

 

And anyway for the Native Americans in the USA that whole living with nature thing is cool, but their civilization was quite lacking. No books, metal-working, masonry, etc, and that was only 300 years ago.

 

[hops_scout]

Region 7, I think it's a sticky slope situation. While Harvard is considered a private institution, it does received government money.

 

If it were the elderly, I don't know if it'd be an issue. I see a bunch of older people in our rec centers. We have community memberships as well as student and Univeristy affiliate memberships. I don't see them making this request.

 

As far as the Indian comments that have come up, they seem to want to be hidden and forgotten. Several universities have changed their mascots over the issue. One tribe has even gone as far as claimed themselves their own country inside of the US.

[skeptic]

The Scout,

 

Sorry, but to me it seemed you were suggesting the Chinese and others were somehow lesser people because they came here for menial jobs. Perhaps I misunderstood the tone.

 

Indians, or N.A.'s if you choose, were often very advanced. Actually, some of our own government design came from the example of the Iroguois Confederacy. If Tecumseh had moved a bit quicker, he and his confederacy might very well have driven the whites back into the sea. In the Southwest, the Hopi and some of the other cliff dwelling cultures were extremely well versed in advanced farming and architechtural devices. And, of course if you go down into Central America, you have the Aztec and Toltec civilizations. Some of the Pacific coast tribes also were very advanced, especially in boating and hunting skills. When the Spanish introduced the Indians to the horse and guns, they very quickly became experts, especially with the horses. If they had not been decimated by European disease and advanced weaponry early on, the whole outcome might very well have been different.

 

Of course, we all know that there were a number of very advanced cultures in Africa too during the colonial period. Unfortuneately, some preyed on weaker, less advanced tribes and sold them into slavery to the Europeans.

 

Then, we have the Chinese; they just happen to come from the oldest continuing civilization and one that was responsible for many very early discoveries that middle age Europeans took back to their countries and used to become dominent.

[Region 7 Voyageur]

hops scout,

 

What is a sticky slope situation? Is that the opposite of a slippery slope situation?

[DYB-Mike]

And anyway teaching history as it was taught for many years before liberals took over the American education establishment is not a shame. There was a time when our schools celebrated the greatness of American and its heritage, not diversity.

 

What kind of a statement is that? Are you saying that owning up to the fact that other races and cultures contributed to American greatness by their sweat and blood is a shame?

 

You dismiss my comments about the blatant bigotry and violence committed against other European Christians as simple Old World antagonisms brought to the New. I guess that makes it all right than. I guess theres nothing to be ashamed of. Thats not saying much for our country SSDD.

 

Lets look at that old time history. Thomas Jefferson wrote that all men are created equal A noble thought by a great man and thinker. But watch out, those nasty liberals are going to tell you that while he wrote that he was a slave owner and even had a conjugal relationship with one, producing descendants that survive to this day.

 

I prefer the facts, The Scout, not some crap about somebody chopping down a cherry tree. As I stated in another thread, the prime reason for studying history is to learn from it, to emulate the good and not repeat the bad, and you cant learn to avoid the bad unless you hear about it.

 

You do make correct observations about other groups becoming part of the American fabric. However, they all become part of the European Christian culture of America. All our institutions and ideas stem from that.

 

America is a fairly young nation, only 232 years old. It took Rome about 900 years before it came to the realization that it was a good idea to grant citizenship to all its peoples. The Battle of Hastings, the beginning of England as we know it today, was almost a thousand years ago. I wonder what American will look like in a thousand years, heck I wonder what America will look like in one year with a possible black or female president!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheScout]

Skeptic,

 

Its ok. I wasn't suggesting they were a "lesser" people, just that they had less influence on the building of America. Some made the blueprint for this great country, others just followed it.

 

It does seem that in the last several decades there has been an attempt to glorify Indian civilization, and you seem to be a willing part. This is all part of the new age moral relativism that all cultures are equal. I am sorry, maybe this makes me a horrible person, but I do not subscribe to it. I believe European Christian culture is superior, even with its faults.

 

The assertion that the Iroqoois Confederacy was an influence on the US Constitution is one of these other ideas that has just been developed in the last few decades. A very controversial assertion. In the records of the debates there is no mention of the Indians. It seems that the classical and contemporary European influence was much greater, if the Indian one even existed at all.

 

See: Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois? - http://hnn.us/articles/12974.html

 

I doubt you would find anyone able to agree that Tecumseh had any chance to drive the whites back to the sea. By 1811 Indians were already hopelessly outnumbered by millions of people. I do give you that the Southwest had quality agricultural techniques - but that alone is little to say for civilization in 1600. Did they ever write a book? And of course the Central Americans had more progress (notice I did say Indians of the USA in my last post). Its just that whole human sacrafice thing doesn't say too much for a culture. (Oh wait, I forgot all culutres are equal). The boating skills of the Pacific Northwest? Did they ever build ships that could cross oceans. Or even develop such a creative society which urged it. No.

 

The advanced cultures of Africa never matched those of Europe in accomplishments. Which one rivaled Greece, Rome, the Netherlands, Portugal, Britian, France? I can't think of anything.

 

But you are correct the Chinese did build a great civilization, though a classical Oriental despotism with absolutly no regard for human rights or conception of limited government. But one must credit them with their great advances.

 

Mike,

 

You said, "What kind of a statement is that? Are you saying that owning up to the fact that other races and cultures contributed to American greatness by their sweat and blood is a shame?"

 

No I'm not saying that. There is a difference between recognizing a contribution and celebrating it just because it is from a certain book. I don't know your exposure to current high school social studies education, but in many cases it emphasizes contributions of other groups in sake of diversity in the stead of focusing on things that are more important. And in most cases the contributions are not comparable. ALL of our institutions and ideas about just about everything come from Christian Europe.

 

What else do you want me to say about "Old World antagonisms." They exist. Contrary to popular belief peoples are different and do not always get along, even within the European family.

 

You demonstrate the new history perfectly with your statement, Thomas Jefferson was a "great man and thinker. BUT . . ." emphasis added. Thomas Jefferson was a great man . . . period. "All men were created equal" applied only to the white political community. And he had a relationship with his slave . . . so? It was his property, and accepted by the standards of the day.

 

All facts are important. Each has its own relative historical importance. But if we allow their true historical importance to our country to be important, facts can be used as a tool for propoganda.

 

Lets look at that old time history. Thomas Jefferson wrote that all men are created equal A noble thought by a great man and thinker. But watch out, those nasty liberals are going to tell you that while he wrote that he was a slave owner and even had a conjugal relationship with one, producing descendants that survive to this day.

 

I prefer the facts, The Scout, not some crap about somebody chopping down a cherry tree. As I stated in another thread, the prime reason for studying history is to learn from it, to emulate the good and not repeat the bad, and you cant learn to avoid the bad unless you hear about it.

 

You do make correct observations about other groups becoming part of the American fabric. However, they all become part of the European Christian culture of America. All our institutions and ideas stem from that.

 

And what America will look like in a thousand years. I hope it looks just like it did today. I like America how it is. Over those 900 years Rome changed. You point out how it started granting general citizenship - at that time it also allowed "barbarian immigration." And what happened to Rome? - it fell. Change a culture, you change a country.

[skeptic]

The Scout,

 

While some of your points certainly have merit, they are no more absolutely accurate than that of Indian influence is inaccurate. Even the detractors appear to give some credence to the idea that the intermix of the two cultures had some influence, especially the relatively cooperative federation of tribes in the Northeast. Just because Europeans could not read the Iroquois language until later, does not mean they did not understand some of the society's concepts. How much effect that might have had will never really be proven.

 

Archeologists and anthropologists continue to find indicators of past very advanced societies and cultures in the midwest, such as the "Mound People". In the "New World", many of the established cultures were well on the way to evolving to even greater discovery. They also appear to have had fewer diseases; many were definitely more hygenic than our "advanced" European forefathers. On the west coast, the scientists continue to find indications of Pacific islanders possibly landing on the shores of the Americas; and the coastal tribes have been proven to have sailed huge distances along the coast and to the off shore islands.

 

While human sacrifice occurred in some instances, it did not approach the levels of cruelty and torture going on in Europe in the same period. That is one of the reasons that the Incas and Mayans were vanquished by the superior weapons of the Spanish; they had no concept of the type of cruelty and greed that the Spanish brought. And, as earlier noted, the diseases also devastated them.

 

As far as I know, the civilizations of Egypt and Mesopotania, both in Africa, rivaled the Greeks and Romans. In fact, some things that made the Greeks and Romans so successful were borrowed from these earlier cultures. Again, archeologists have found strong indicators that some of the success of those North African cultures were influenced by peoples from farther south on the continent.

 

This debate, though, has nothing to do with Scouting, and will never be settled to the satisfaction of all. So, I will drop it at this point.

 

(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[TheScout]

skeptic,

 

I would still have to go on the side opposing the influence of the Iroqouis Confederacy, but we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

The Mound People? Come on? Meanwhile Europe built the Colleseum and Notre Dame. The Indians built mounds. Who knows, they may have floated on small vessels to the Pacific, but built no great ships of trade and transport.

 

I can not think of anything more cruel than human sacrafice, along with war to perpetrate it. Much less of a concept of human rights. There was no Indian Magna Carta as far as we know. And it was much more than "some instances" in which human sacrafice was conducted. The Aztecs did it by the thousands at some points.

 

Mesopatamia is not in Africa. Eqypt, though in Africa, was much more related to Middle East than to the "black" Africans. They had a language which was closer to the Semetic family than any of the "black" African ones. They might even be considered Caucasion. I'm not sure. Some include Arabs, North Africans, and some Indians in that racial family. So while Eqypt had its accomplishments, black Africa remained pitifully behind.