Lambda Legal urges LA to cut ties with Learning for Life

[evmori]

The bottom line is the kids suffer. Ya think LA will pick up the slack? I doubt it and neither will anyone else! So the end result is kids are without a useful program & the gang population of LA will now probably increase.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[CalicoPenn]

Maybe I was being too obtuse in one of my answers. In this specific case, it is highly unlikely that any kids will miss out. The city sponsors Police and Fire Explorer Posts (which are part of LFL). They don't sponsor these units blindly, as many sponsors (including schools at one time) do - they aren't just a place that signs paperwork once per year and maybe provides a place to meet and store equipment.

 

No - these LFL units are Police and Fire Department cadet units - not only does the City (through its individual police and fire stations) sponsor these units, all of the adult leaders are active-duty City of LA police and fire department employees - working out of the station that the cadets meet in. It is extremely unlikely that the City of LA will fold its Police and Fire Cadet programs because all of a sudden, they can't associate with LFL. Interestingly enough, the Commissioners of the LAPD has been pushing for the department to end ties with LFL for a while now, and have been doing so since before this letter from LL. It seems the only reason the department brass can come up with for their reluctance is that their cadets won't be eligible to play in the National Explorer Post competitions anymore - that seems to be the sum total of the benefit they're able to point to.

 

As for the idea that the ACLU is trying to bend the BSA to its will, I say, Utter Hogwash. It isn't about bending the will of the BSA, its about making sure the BSA sleeps in the bed it made, that the BSA follow the same rules that everyone else needs to follow. The dumbest thing the BSA did in the past 15 years was tell a Boy Scout Troop in New Jersey that they couldn't have a former Eagle Scout as an Assistant Scoutmaster because he happened to be gay. At that moment, the BSA started down a set of Class V rapids it hadn't thoroughly scouted. They pulled out a scorched earth defense - private religious organization, and ended up burning themselves in the process. They declared themselves a religious organization - all the ACLU is doing is ensuring that they be treated just like every other religious organization. To paraphrase EarthFirst: "No Compromise in the Defense of the 1st Amendment"

 

Calico

 

 

[evmori]

The ACLU is ticked, Calico, that it lost the Dale case and will do everything in it's power to ruin the BSA. The ones who suffer are the kids because the BSA runs programs for cities & counties & states that are open to all but now they can't because the few want to decide what is best for the masses.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[CalicoPenn]

I guess we'll just have to agree that we have a different definition of what the word "All" means.

 

Calico

[packsaddle]

The thing is, Ed, that as you acknowledged, LA must obey the law. The way this really works is that lawfully, LA has no choice and LL is exercising their legal right to compel the government to obey the law. To advocate otherwise would be to advocate breaking the law.

Therefore BSA is the controlling entity. BSA freely chooses their discrimination policy. BSA is not being forced to discriminate and BSA doesn't have to discriminate, they choose to. Therefore it is essentially BSA policy that will force LA to cut the ties. If any harm is done, BSA will be responsible for it.

This is the poorly-scouted class V rapid that Calico described so vividly. And it was a great metaphor for the whole issue.

[skeptic]

Perhaps they actually scouted the rapids using maps that were currently established; but they did not expect to have the course vandalized by egocentric forces undermining the banks and throwing in man-made boulders.

[DanKroh]

Excellently put, Calico!

[packsaddle]

Skeptic, if you're saying that BSA thought (hoped) they could 'get away with it', I agree. They were apocalyptically incompetent at predicting the future.

One of my surgeon friends likes to repeat a rule-of-thumb that he was taught during his training. It is really good advice for surgeons who don't want to be sued and it would have worked for BSA as well.

"If you think you can get away with it, don't do it."

[evmori]

The BSA is not responsible. And as a Scouter to say so is just wrong. Is the BSA responsible for stopping these programs? Nope. In this case it is Lambada. Why? Because Lambada members are discriminated against by the BSA. Now, does this directly effect the programs the BSA is running in conjunction with LA? I seriously doubt it.

 

It seems the Dale case is creating a bigger vacuum for our youth to fall into. When we look back years later & ask what happened, it will be very obvious.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, all Lambda Legal is doing is telling LA to follow its own laws. Yes, it IS the BSA's fault for painting themselves into a corner.

[skeptic]

Did not say that; said that the stream was vandalized by egocentric individuals who choose to redirect the course to suit themselves, even if it is not to the best interests of the landscape through which the stream flows.

 

Sort of like the landowner who dams up the stream on his land so that the majority of the neighbors downstream can no longer benefit from its resource. But it is his "right". And if the neighbors somehow alter something to try to reach a compromise, like splitting the stream above, he sues them.

 

And so the majority of the farmers downstream no longer can grow their crops, and the stream habitat is irrevocably damaged. But it is still his "right", so why should he care?

 

Again, I have difficulty understanding why a simple belief or symbol should have any effect on the welfare of these challengers. I can only think that they must have very little self esteem if they are so easily damged. Of course that is because they live in a world of "me", the only person that matters.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

skeptic, from my point of view, you are the one living in a world of "me". You want the BSA to be a private, discriminatory organization, yet you don't want any adverse consequences from that status. Lambda Legal did not pass a new law here; they are pointing out to the city of LA that city contracts for sevices from discriminatory organizations violate their own city codes.

 

As an aside, some years back there was talk about L4L being completely spun off as an independent organization; maybe it's time to do that. Its close association with a discriminating organization (and in many cases, as in LA, the intermingling of funds) will almost certainly cause more problems in the future.

 

 

(fix typo)(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[skeptic]

Well Merlyn, the "me" with which I am associated is a majority of the population. And our actions do no actual harm to your "me", but your actions take productive youth programs away, or make them more difficult to administer with higher costs. Please explain again how forcing these issues helps anyone in a truely constructive manner for society! Maybe all this effort put into attacking worthwhile activities could be better used to do something actually beneficial to the community at large.

[stevejb]

Nicely said skeptic. I agree with you.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

skeptic writes:

our actions do no actual harm to your "me"

 

Uh, no. You do NOT get to determine that I am not actually harmed by having city contracts with an organization that officially denegrates atheists.

 

You can say YOU are or are not harmed. I get to say the same for me.