A solution to the atheist problem

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

JoeBob writes:

Atheists in Scouting are only a problem if they want to be. If they want to be a problem, they don't want to be in Scouting.

 

I disagree; using the Dale case as a guide, doing anything that indicates a person might be an atheist can get them kicked out, such as writing a letter to the editor saying "under god" should not be in the pledge, or being seen in a bookstore buying a copy of "The God Delusion."

[le Voyageur]

 

 

Until a mormon prophet tells BSA that god says it's okay to admit atheist, it'll never happen.

[Lisabob]

"What does my God (Catholic) want me to do about Muslim expansionism? If we keep turning the other cheek for another few decades, Christianity won't be here any more... "

 

 

 

Oh dear. This is how religious wars get going. I hope nobody's religious entity is "telling" them to do anything about the growth of other religions...

 

There is certainly more focus on Islam these days in many places (including the US) because of world events. But Islam has long been among the largest religions in the world. This is not new. Yet, there is no reason to view it as a threat to other established religions. I am not sure where you are coming from with this comment, JoeBob, but it strikes me very much along the same lines as people who get all upset that someday the US won't be a majority "white" nation any more. My question is: So what?

[Mr. Boyce]

My little world's big enough that I can live and allow other faiths to develop and prosper, and it bothers me not if they use a schoolroom to meet. That's no official endorsement in my book. I think reasonable and serious adults aren't going to be so quibbly as the lawyers; there's a lot of good common sense out there. I may seriously object to the tenets of a faith, but we're all in this soup of life together, and I have no interest in harming anyone. It's fine in my book, say, if proselytizing pagans were to meet in a school. Doesn't touch the hair on my back none.

[Mr. Boyce]

. . . in fact, if those pagans were doing positive things in the community, I'd be happy to have them meet at the school or city hall. Benefits can outweigh the airy negatives.

[Lisabob]

Sure, Mr. Boyce, so what's your point? Scout groups can already use public facilities like school rooms, under the same terms and conditions that any other community organizations can use them. I don't even think I heard Merlyn oppose that (though maybe he did and I didn't notice).

 

Where I live, many small evangelical Christian groups hold their weekly prayer meetings in the local elementary school cafeteria. They pay the same fees that any other community group (including scouts) would pay to use that room on a weekend. No problem.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Where I live, many small evangelical Christian groups hold their weekly prayer meetings in the local elementary school cafeteria. They pay the same fees that any other community group (including scouts) would pay to use that room on a weekend.

 

Yah, but would they be allowed to use "backpack mail" to announce events to students/parents?

 

Are there some groups that are accorded free access while the Christian groups are made to pay fees?

 

National Honor Society is an outside group, eh? It's the awards program of the National Association of Secondary School Principals, which is in part a professional society and in part a political lobby. Do your schools charge fees for NHS meetings? If not, why are they accorded special privileges while other groups like scouts are not?

 

B

 

[JoeBob]

Merlyn: I'm proud that you disagree. Does your 'being a problem' extend beyond this forum to have a negative impact on your scouting experience? If so, then it's probably because you want to be a problem.

 

LisaBob: "This is how religious wars get going. I hope nobody's religious entity is "telling" them to do anything about the growth of other religions..."

Do you not believe the radical Muslim clerics when they tell the world that their purpose in life is to wipe out Christianity and all faiths not Islam? The individual Muslims I know are fine people (with a damn good work ethic!), but I'm dissapointed that there aren't many moderate voices out there condemning the attacks of the religious war which we're already in. Sadly, I'm left with the impression that behind closed doors most Muslims are working to promote Sharia law.

There are too many examples to list which bolster my position. I'd rather cut to the chase: Christianity spreads through God's love inspiring people's faith. I'm not supposed to hate, fight, or murder (although killing in war is not murder). At what point does self-preservation and protecting our families justify a preemptive strike?

Do we have to wait until after Iran pops a nuke in NYC?

 

Mental meanderings:

1- How do the Hindus of India view this same conflict against Muslims? They've been trying to live with Islam for a few centuries.

2- Are God and Allah two sides of the same entity? Jekyl and Hyde?

 

I guess that wearing a burkha makes it easier for women to get out of the house in the morning. But I don't want to lose the other freedoms inherent in Christianity. My daughter would be pissed!

 

PING!

[evmori]

I disagree; using the Dale case as a guide, doing anything that indicates a person might be an atheist can get them kicked out, such as writing a letter to the editor saying "under god" should not be in the pledge, or being seen in a bookstore buying a copy of "The God Delusion."

 

Now that is one heck of a stretch! I pray you didn't pull something when you were formulating that statement, Merlyn!

[Lisabob]

JoeBob, every major world religion has its radicals. That includes Christianity. As a student of political terrorism (from well before the 9/11 attacks) I can tell you there have been many examples of "Christian" terrorists.

 

Timothy McVeigh was a "Christian." He was responsible for the single most devastating domestic terrorist attack in US history. Yet I do not believe that these radical Christian groups are representative of the great mass of Christians in the world, or even of Christians in the US. Would you see him as a fair representation of Christianity? Probably not.

 

So. Why you would believe that a small percentage of people who hold radical and violent beliefs are representative of the great mass of people who follow Islam throughout the world, is beyond me.

 

Regarding Hindus and Muslims - read your Indian history. The two groups have long co-existed, going back well before the division of the subcontinent by the British, into India/Pakistan. That is not to say that there haven't been periods of communal violence, or that there has not been warfare and worse between the two states since 1947. But there have been lengthy periods of peace, too. It is just not as simple as you appear to be suggesting that it is. And incidentally there are Hindu extremists, too.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Beavah,

 

The school district I'm in charges all outside groups for use of school facilities on weekends. They prohibit all outside groups (including scouts) from using "backpack mail" to advertise upcoming events. They do allow for groups to leave flyers in the lobbies or the main office, but they will not distribute them for groups.

 

NHS is probably not the best example for you, because they have local school-affiliated chapters with student officers and faculty advisors. This is, by definition, a school club. Similarly, the Model UN program is linked up with a national MUN society, but the local club is a school-based program. A better example (at least where I live) might be the local driver ed program or the local ski club, which are not school-affiliated (skiing is not a varsity activity and the club is sponsored by a local ski "resort" - driver ed is run by private businesses) in any way even though most of their membership comes from the high school population. If those groups wish to hold events on campus on weekends, they pay the fee.

 

Since someone is bound to ask: the fee pays the janitor's overtime salary for coming in on weekends. And in a cash-strapped state and a cash-strapped school district, there is talk that this fee will soon be extended to include weeknight events for non-school groups too. That would be problematic for us, since many local packs and troops currently meet in school rooms on week nights, for free.

 

 

I stand corrected about the skiing - it is a varsity activity, but the ski club is separate from that.

(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[JoeBob]

Lisabob: "Why you would believe that a small percentage of people who hold radical and violent beliefs are representative of the great mass of people who follow Islam throughout the world, is beyond me."

 

As the site Bare Naked Islam puts it, "It isn't Islamophobia when they really are trying to kill you."

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1993321/posts

 

'Our policy of turning the other cheek up until 9/11 only emboldened Radicals. They kept escalating the violence until they hit us so hard we couldnt ignore it. And theyre going to continue waging war on us, whether we fight back or not, until Allah grants them victory (as theyre confident he will). Ignoring them hasnt worked in the past. Why would it work in the future?'

 

Searching for Christian terrorism only returned hits from atheist sites, who claim that 'the Republican war on science' is terroism.

McVeigh was anti-government. He just happend to be Christian. And EVERYBODY in Christian leadership condemned the OKC bombings.

[Lisabob]

As the site Bare Naked Islam puts it, "It isn't Islamophobia when they really are trying to kill you."

 

Yes, and that's a great resource? You know that just because stuff is on the web, doesn't make it all true? And just because you don't find anything with a quick google search doesn't mean nothing ever occurred or existed?

 

Read about some of the stuff that McVeigh relied upon to justify his actions. Many anti-government, white-power type groups use and abuse Christian theology to support their twisted arguments. Doubt it? Check out the turner diaries.

 

We've been down this road before, but the 9/11 attacks were very widely condemned in much of the Muslim world, too. It could just be that you were not attuned to the sources of that condemnation, and so you (along with a lot of others) may have missed it, or may not have understood the positions of respect and authority held by many who spoke out against such violence.

 

At this point, we have strayed pretty far from the original focus of the thread. I am going to stop discussing the topic with you, JoeBob, but I would implore you to think a little more deeply and question a little more thoroughly, before assuming that the whole of a world religion is out to get you.

 

 

 

[Kahuna]

"How are you defining Deist? Most of the founders were from organized religions. You'd be hard pressed to name some who were non-Christian."

 

How about Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and James Madison? You can look up the others yourself. Some were members of churches and organized religion, yes, but if you look at what they wrote (not least the Declaration of Independence), you see they were really Deists. Pretty much everyone in society in those belonged to some church or other. Doesn't mean they subscribed to all the doctrine.

 

Deists can be defined differently, but I believe the most common definition would be one who believes there is a Creator, but not one who concerns Himself/Herself with the lives of humans. Nor does He/She reveal anything to humans.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

JoeBob, you may not have noticed, but the BSA bars atheists now, whether they are creating a "problem" or not. Sure, it's possible for some atheists to be members, but that isn't due to their not being a problem, it's due to few people knowing about it (and the ones that do, apparently not bothered by it). All it takes to get thrown out is for that information to get to the wrong person, which can happen in any number of ways, not necessarily due to any "problem" caused by the atheist. Saying every case has to be due to the atheist causing a problem is just blaming the victim.