A solution to the atheist problem

[DYB-Mike]

Searching for Christian terrorism only returned hits from atheist sites

 

JoeBob, you need to dig deeper. Just off the top of my head:

 

What about the IRA and the Orangemen, or the Klu Klux Klan? What about the pogroms in Russia?

 

What about the Huguenots persecutions in France, or Henry VIII and the dissolution of the Monasteries? What about Queen Mary and her attempts to reestablish Catholic primacy in England? They didnt call her Bloody Mary for nothing.

 

What about the Inquisition?

 

And why do you think Islamic radicals call us Crusaders?

 

These are not proud moments for Christianity. Even sadder, like the Sunnis and Shia, much of the above was Christian against Christian.

 

YIS

Mike

 

 

 

[Beavah]

NHS is probably not the best example for you, because they have local school-affiliated chapters with student officers and faculty advisors.

 

Nah, I think it's a decent example, because it follows the same sort of charterin' model that the BSA does.

 

So here we have an outside political lobbying organization (NASSP) given privileged access to children in schools through their awards program, even though some in the community may be opposed to their positions on particular issues. The schools do that because they want their students who are eligible to have the benefits of the program. But not all students are eligible, eh?

 

That isn't much different than an outside youth services organization (BSA) being given access to children in schools through their chartering & awards program even though some in the community may be opposed to their positions. At least da BSA isn't a political lobby with a legislative agenda . The schools might wish to do that because they want their students who are eligible to have the benefits of the program, even though not all students are eligible.

 

So if the state gives privileged access to children to an outside political group, isn't that a form of viewpoint discrimination which we should oppose? Do we really want the state to endorse political groups to our kids in that way? Shouldn't the measure rather be "we'll charter any community group who we feel serves a segment of our population well, regardless of their political or religious viewpoint?"

 

Yeh might say that most kids don't realize NHS has political connections, but then most kids don't realize BSA has religious connections. Yeh might say that mediocre or poor students are not a "suspect class" and it's legally acceptable to discriminate against them in the provision of services, and that's true. But is it OK? Da BSA would welcome weak students in their programs, and I'd argue that weaker students need more programming and chance for success. And, after all, religion is a suspect class, and excludin' the BSA's weak religious message in favor of the NASSP's weak secular/political message smacks of viewpoint discrimination by the state, eh?

 

Just sayin'.

 

Beavah

 

[campcrafter]

JoeBob wrote: But I don't want to lose the other freedoms inherent in Christianity.

 

Which freedoms do regard as "inherent in Christianity."?

 

I think the histories of Puritans, Church of Rome, Calvinists etc and the idea of inhernet freedoms due to Christianity would make for interesting discussion.

 

Too often I think those who regard America as a Christian nation confuse the freedoms that were given to us by our secular constitution and government as being somehow Christian.

 

England was a Christian nation and the founding fathers revolted. They should not have done so if they were "good" Christians and believed that George was king by divine right.

 

 

 

[JoeBob]

Merlyn: "All it takes to get thrown out is for that information to get to the wrong person, which can happen in any number of ways, not necessarily due to any "problem" caused by the atheist. Saying every case has to be due to the atheist causing a problem is just blaming the victim."

I painted with too broad a brush, Merlyn; you're right.

 

 

SIZZLE!

 

Now that the lightening bolts have simmered down around my keyboard, let me concede the presence of many 'Holier-than-thou' types looking to elevate themselves at the expense of less Godly individuals. As a tolerant relegious person, holy purists just iritate and embarass the grits out of me!

 

DYB Mike: All of your examples of Christian terrorism are ancient history except for Ireland. You nailed me with the IRA. Are the protestants trying to eliminate the Catholics, and vice versa; or are they just adhering to their religious grouping in a struggle for political power? Which one is vying for world domination? I really don't know.

 

Lisabob: I apologize for the thread hijack. I truly hope that you're correct and I'm paranoid.

I know I'm paranoid, I don't know if you're correct.

 

[DYB-Mike]

JoeBob, the KKK isnt ancient history either, neither are the Russian pogroms.

 

How long ago these things happened isnt the point, its that Christians really arent blameless either when it comes to terrorism it just so happens that we live in an age when Islam is on the front page. We need to keep our own Christian past in mind when considering these current events.

 

My understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland is that it is primarily a political struggle for control of that area, it just so happens the opposing factions are two branches of Christianity. Some of the Troubles have spilled to this side of the Atlantic though, and in my neck of the woods, in the form of gun running and murder.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[JoeBob]

DYB - The KKK was racist in it's motivations. They were not trying to spread Christianity.

So you shouldn't categorize them as 'Christian terrorists'.

Unless I missed the part about burning crosses in the new testament?

[Engineer61]

While the KKK is (not was) racist in it's motivations, the KKK frequently uses twisted views and interpretations Christianity as the justification for their actions.

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Joe Bob, the KKK and NeoNazi parties are racist hatemongering organizations who want to wipe off the face of the earth select groups of people based on race and religion. Ancient history always repeats itself, look at the racial cleansing going on in Iraq, Iran,Israel, Pakistan, Afganistan, half the continent of Africa, in the Balkans, etc. No Christian, Jew, or Muslim is guilt free, historians show that most wars throughout history were based on religious differences as the primary or secondary motivation.

 

This stupidity and hatred is as alive today as it was 1,000 years ago proving how little we have evolved as a people, the only difference today is now we have the technology to wipe out the entire world instead of a group of people. Any faith tradition that promotes their superiority over peace and tolerance is part of the PROBLEM not the solution. As a worldwide community if we can not learn to live in tolerance and peace with those different from ourselves we are eventually doomed to destroy ourselves. The atheist is not the problem it is our own greed and intolerance that is the true enemy.

[JoeBob]

BadenP: It's not only the technology that has made world wide destruction easier; it communication technology (Cable news and the Net) that have made it easier for crazies to preach their warped views more widely.

 

During the Crusades, it took several months of travel to reach the battle in the middle east. Recruiting soldiers from England to leave their families and farms for many months and travel across France to liberate 'the Holy Land' must have taken some serious arm-twisting.

 

In 2010, a jihadist cleric from Iran can issue a fatwah online against anyone who dares to publish cartoons about Mohamed (Which one?). Major media companies, who'll got to prison before they'll surrender their sources, then refrain from publishing those cartoons for fear of being stabbed on their way at night.

 

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Sorry to join in the hijack.

 

Want to read some interesting stuff - look up Quakers in the pre-revolutionary colonies...

 

With the atrocities committed in England against church members, they began migrating to America. It was in 1656 that the first Quakers arrived in Boston, being two women missionaries. The Puritan ministers there pronounced them "heretics" and "witches". The result was that they were seized at the ship, stripped to the waist and lashed. They left the colony under orders, but continued to suffer, being branded on the hands with "H", thrown in jail. In 1659, four missionaries were hanged in Boston.About the same time, in Virginia, William Robinson, who migrated on the ship "The Woodhouse" in 1657, was accused of heresy, his personal property being seized, including his clothes, and sold by the sheriff. Ultimately, he was one of the four hanged in Boston. Further, in 1659 the Virginia General Assembly passed a law against the Quakers, fining 100 lbs. sterling to any ship's master who brought in Quakers. Too, prison terms were imposed on Quakers who refused to leave the colony. This caused church members to flee to a colony which welcomed settlement ? Maryland, where fifty acres of land were offered to settlers in the Annamessex?Manokin area (Somerset Co.)

 

Since we're not hanging and branding Quakers anymore, could Athiest scouts be far behind?

 

NC(This message has been edited by novice_cubmaster)

[DYB-Mike]

Hijack continued.

 

Novice_Cubmaster, I had intended on mentioning the Quaker persecutions in my earlier response, but felt I was not informed enough about them.

 

There is a statue of Mary Dyer at our Statehouse in Boston. She was exiled by the Puritans for her Quaker beliefs several times but kept returning because her conscience and convictions moved her to. On her last return she was arrested, tried, convicted of heresy, and hanged on the Boston Common in 1660.

 

What was that about coming to the New World (America) to escape religious persecution?

 

Again, its Christian persecuting Christian. I've never heard of Atheists persecuting each other.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[Beavah]

 

Again, its Christian persecuting Christian. I've never heard of Atheists persecuting each other.

 

Surely you jest.

 

There's always an us vs. them, our-tribe vs. their-tribe thing goin' on. Russian communist atheists and Chinese communist atheists sure have come to shootin' conflicts on more than one occasion. Mao's cultural revolution sure produced a lot of brutal atheist-on-atheist persecution, as did Stalin's purges.

 

Atheism isn't proof against that sort of thing any more than Christendom is. Perhaps less, because at least Christendom teaches a moral obligation to the other tribe as fellow humans. Even though the teaching is ignored more than half the time, it remains there as a call and a warning.

 

Perhaps that's why the most vicious pogroms and slaughters of the last 100 years have been perpetrated by secular atheists.

 

Beavah

 

[campcrafter]

Beavah

 

That is why church and state MUST be separate and the importance of the right to worship or not worship as one desires.

 

That the state should either impose or outlaw religion only leads to disaster.

[DYB-Mike]

Good point Beavah; I stand corrected.

 

YIS

Mike