A solution to the atheist problem

[Gold Winger]

No, I don't intend to stake them out at 600 yards and use them for target practice with my M1. :-)

 

Seriously.

 

I've never been to a church were unbelievers weren't welcome. Okay, in the Orthodox church, you're supposed to leave about midway through the service so that you don't see the mysteries of the consecration. However, you're still welcome for much of the service.

 

Why not admit atheists with the explanation that there will be Sunday morning prayer and discussions of the creator, by whatever name he uses?

 

If the atheist doesn't like that, he can quite. However, if he sticks around, he might wind up with a greater understanding of the universe and may reach Znerflot.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

First, that still won't save HUD grants, or bring back public schools as chartering organizations; public money can't be used to proselytize theism.

 

Second, are atheists allowed to argue that gods are myths?

[acco40]

First, what is the atheist problem?

 

Second, unbelievers - how about nonbelievers.

 

Gold Winger - why not admit - admit to what? Your church? To the BSA?

 

I'm sorry but I don't follow your post.

[Gold Winger]

unbeliever (nb-lver) noun

One who lacks belief or faith, especially in a particular religion; a nonbeliever.

 

BSA, that's what this forum is about. Right?

 

Sheesh! Even Merlyn knew what I was talking about.

[AT1988]

I think Gold Winger's intent is noble.

 

Is there a place for non-theists is scouting? I dear say they've quietly been here from the beginning. I like what Elizabeth I said about having ". . .no desire to make windows into men's souls."

 

Reverence is a virtue (not to mention the final word in the scout law), but as I see it is also a two way street. As a courtesy we respect other peoples beliefs. We bow our heads or remain silent when someone prays, whether that be a Mormon, Jew, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or what have you.

 

We also have the right to expect that others do not try to pry open the window to our soul. Unless one of us chooses to make it public, our own spiritual beliefs are private, and any attempt to violate this privacy is a trespass of the worst kind.

[Narraticong]

BSA,s position on "Duty to God", is a difficult one for many of us on several levels. For many of us more conservative Christians, there is only one God. We do not accept that all deities are the same. I am one of those Christians who believe that all other gods are false gods.

 

On the other hand, as an American, I believe every citizen has a right to believe in any god, or no god, whatsoever. Without a doubt, the Constituion makes it one of our God given rights (figure that one out).

 

As a Scout, I believe every Scout or Scouter is required to believe in some higher power as God. Reverence requires respect for the varying beliefs of our Scouting brothers. I do not have to accept their beliefs, but I do have to respect their right as a Scout to believe in a different god.

 

Is there a place for atheists in Scouting? If we are to remain true to the current standards of Scouting, no there is no room. It is what it is.

 

Although I serve on our Council Religious Relations Committee, I do not consider most of the "worship" services at Scout outings to relate to my worship of God. Most are inclusive of other beliefs which I feel are unacceptable, dangerous, and wrong minded. I do, however, feel it is a good thing for our Scouts to become familiar with faiths other than their own from an educational standpoint. It is always a good thing to understand the customs of our neighbors, though they may be different from our own.

 

Were it left to me, I might make some changes to BSA's practice of Duty to God. If we are to remain respective of all faiths, we might do best to do away with any type of worship at Scout outings. At best, they are watering down worship for every faith involved. At worst, they are putting false gods on an equal footing as my one, true God. It might be more fitting to strongly encourage individual participation in worship of the Scouts own choice, made with his family. Encourage a quiet time on outings when those of like belief may choose to worship together as a small group. A time when individuals can partake in individual worship time, commune with nature, or just take a nap.

[skeptic]

Can we have pie before the nap??

[campcrafter]

Narraticong wrote: On the other hand, as an American, I believe every citizen has a right to believe in any god, or no god, whatsoever. Without a doubt, the Constituion makes it one of our God given rights (figure that one out).

 

What's to figure out? There is a doubt - The Constitution gives us the right as citizens. God has nothing to do with it. God is not mentioned in the Constitution.

 

 

Narraticong wrote: It might be more fitting to strongly encourage individual participation in worship of the Scouts own choice, made with his family. Encourage a quiet time on outings when those of like belief may choose to worship together as a small group. A time when individuals can partake in individual worship time, commune with nature, or just take a nap.

 

I fully agree with you.

 

 

YIS

cc(This message has been edited by campcrafter)(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

[evmori]

Pie before and after the nap!

 

I'm not sure there is a problem?

[Narraticong]

While the Constitution itself does not mention God directly, the founding documents leading up to it most certainly leave a clear trail. There is no doubt the founders believed the Christian God was the source of our rights. In turn, the state constitutions nearly all directly mention God.

 

The fact that the US Constituion does not mention God does not mean the founders were at all without Faith. It means only that they intended for religion and government to remain at arms length.

[Engineer61]

Huh?

 

The opening of the Declaration of Independence states:

 

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

 

I see no reference to Jesus, or an other hint of Christianity in this opening. In fact this is the only reference to God in the DoI.

 

Moving to the Constitution of the US...

 

The word God is not in the CoUS. Nor it is the 1st Amendment which guarantees the freedom of religious expression and the separation of Church and State.

 

The US was founded by a collection of individuals and groups who suffered religious persecution throughout the Old World. The separation of Church (by definition the ruling Christian churches of the time) was obviously viewed as critical to the Framers.

 

So some how extrapolate that the US is a Christian state because the Framers happened to be Christian is suspect at best.

 

Now, if the BSA or any other organization in the US wants to have a exclusionary policy to limit membership or advancement in organization based upon a religious ground...I have no problem with that.

 

But, I do have an issue with such organizations receiving any beneficial treatment from the government as long as they do so maintain such exclusions.

[Kahuna]

"Although I serve on our Council Religious Relations Committee, I do not consider most of the "worship" services at Scout outings to relate to my worship of God. Most are inclusive of other beliefs which I feel are unacceptable, dangerous, and wrong minded."

 

Boy, is that scary. I certainly hope not too many of the BSA relationships people feel that way.

 

As to the Declaration of Independence, there is no question really that most of the founders were Deists, which was quite common among educated upper class at the time.

[BDPT00]

I'm curious. How are you defining Deist? Most of the founders were from organized religions. You'd be hard pressed to name some who were non-Christian.

Your statement was "most of the founders were Deists." Care to offer a list? You have 56 from whom to choose. I'll wait here.

BDPT00

 

[JoeBob]

Gold Winger: Don't you love the 'PING!' every eight rounds? (Garand)

 

 

Atheists in Scouting are only a problem if they want to be. If they want to be a problem, they don't want to be in Scouting.

 

 

You won't catch me waxing theological very often. But I do have a real concern about the Islamic growth trend the world is experiencing right now. What does my God (Catholic) want me to do about Muslim expansionism? If we keep turning the other cheek for another few decades, Christianity won't be here any more...

 

JoeBob

[campcrafter]

Narraticong wrote: the founding documents leading up to it most certainly leave a clear trail.

 

I admit to being ignorant regarding a lot of my American History. If you would please give me the titles of some of the documents you refer to that I might look them up.

 

Thanks

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