BSA councils attempt to defraud public for funds

[OldGreyEagle]

Pappy, you may wish to rethink your stand on what Merlyn wants, you said

 

"Merlins modus operandi is not for fairness, but for the establishment of an anti-clerical state"

 

No where in any of Merlyn's posts will you see this. He does not want public money used to help fund private organizations which is a far cry from establishing an anti-clerical state.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey Poppy, HUD funds aren't just a big bucket of money that anyone can grab, organizations actually need to meet standards to get HUD grants, among them are the nondiscrimination requirements. As I've pointed out elsewhere, the BSA does have a nondiscriminatory subsidiary (Learning for Life) which can operate programs that meet the HUD requirements. But attempting to use HUD funds in any program that has religious requirements is simply dishonest.

 

(If I am going to edit Pappy then I have to edit Merlyn as well, OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Hiromi]

(non sense attack on Merlyn, we attempt to reach a higher plane OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Trevorum]

Awesome writes,

" So you don't believe that ACLU and other organizations ... [are] not trying to shut us down?"

 

No, I don't think anyone is trying to shut down the BSA. That is just silly and alarmist. If you look more carefully, the ACLU and others are merely ensuring that BSA - having declared itself to be a religious organization - fairly operates by the rules governing religious organizations.

 

"I can't see how the diversion of funds from the program to fight court battles is helping us..."

 

I agree. The answer is simple. BSA must operate by the rules governing religious organizations. No foul, no penalty.

 

"I certainly believe that these organizations and their members have every right to associate with those who share the same values as they do but don't I have the same rights?"

 

Absolutely. I guess this means you don't want to associate with me.

 

"And as far as the argument about changing with the times, I have to say no thank you."

 

That's your right. Personally, I much prefer todays morality over the past when we made some people sit at the back of the bus because of their skin color, or forbade other people from voting because of they lacked a Y chromosome, or restricted the employment and housing of other people because they had the wrong religion. (I guess I'm a glass-half-full guy.) I also think we still have a long ways to go in matters of civil rights, but we'll get there.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Heh, heh, OGE if you'll PM me your address, I'm going to send you a Valentine. You deserve it..you like dark chocolate?

[Nessmuk]

Why do people continue to think that it's "alarmist" to think that another group would actually subvert a movement or idea for which they hold great contempt.. Trevorum apparently has not met and studied, worked and generally consorted with the sort of elitist liberal types (and some who even claim to be "moderates") that I have been exposed to over the years... People act as though "conspiracies" don't really happen. If they don't, why do we have the word - and why do we use it to describe people who in fact do "conspire"..

 

If it were my calling, (and I wish it were sometimes) I would enthusiatically engage in an attack on the morally deprived elements that attacked movements like ours.. Actually for me the good fight is in Scouting - working to build up and promote the values.. But they attack us from their positions in social, governmental, academic and corporate entities. To pretend it does not exist is ostrich-like at best..

 

As I read Hans Zeigers works that Pappy referenced, I am compelled to think that the enemies of our movement, and hence our values, succesfully gutted Candian Scouting from the inside - the absolutely textbook best way to demolish your enemy - Oh but that can't happen ! It's alarmist.. Was it alarmist that Nazis secretly landed on the shores of Jersey in the 3o's and 40's.??. Oh, but because that was a "real" war between countries, it really happened..

 

Hey folks the current cultural war is a war more real than any armed conflict between nations, because the battle lines have no geographical defintions but are instead drawn around the minds, hearts and daily lives of people (OUR people) Our boys (the future male leadership of our nation and world! -- and you think no-one would want to subvert our values in a concentrated and organized manner. Canada is a great example of how the BSA should NOT let go of its values. Consider Australia, and the UK too.. both failing tremendously..

 

Anyone watching the erosion of our Bill of Rights in the US (particularly the 2nd ammendment)should be able to readily draw an analogy and example to what is occurring in those increasingly Orwellian states of UK, Canada, Australia...

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Nessmuk writes: "Hey folks the current cultural war is a war more real than any armed conflict between nations,..."

 

Try telling that to the families and friends of people killed in NY, PA, and DC on 9/11, or to those who were killed or injured in Iraq, Afghanistan, London, Spain, Bali, Lebanon, Israel, Palestinian territories and elsewhere in the last 8 years. Nessmuk, I believe that the biggest reason most people are unwilling to see what you are describing as genuine "war" or even "attacks" is because what you are talking about, important as it is, is simply not the same as the what happens in the genuine article. Ask any sailor, soldier, or airman (or -woman) and I think they'll be glad to confirm that for you.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Nessmuk,

2nd Amendment? That's what you're worried about? Have you noticed whats happened to the 4th and 5th Amendment in the past 6 years? Does the PATRIOT act bring any images of constitutional transgressions?

[Hiromi]

Way to twist Nessmuk's ideas there Lisabob.

 

You know- the reason so many conflagrations occurred has been because of a failure of the public imagination and a lack of vigilance by the nation's intellectual elites and moral lights to speak up and call out evil in their time. But alas, that is a lesson of a discipline with teeth to it- History.

 

Ask a Jew Lisa bob about 1930s America's and Europe's disgusting refusal to believe that Hitler was anything but a monster when all the evidence pointed to it.

 

Many of the professors in the academies, especially in the softer sciences, are motivated by revolution and turning over what they perceive as the major impediments to progress- Such as The American Middle Class Bourgeoisies Consumerist Bible Believing Boy Scout Raising Americans.

 

I have seen it first hand at a small liberal arts college, a technical aviation school in the Southwest, and then at a large Chicago University. Amongst the academic elites the rabidity of loathing for what most Americans would see as wholesomeness and good values is palpable.

 

The schools of sociology and anthropology and political science, environmental and climate sciences, and especially the schools of education are brimming with Hard Left faculty whose sites are on proselytizing their brand of revolution to the kids just trying to muddle through with a teaching certificate. It is criminal and it goes on with impudence.

 

The results are a cynicism bread of moral relativism. Idealism is seen as a trait of the stupid or at best naive.

 

Do you teach at a very Christian University? Because your apparent blindness to this very real conspiracy is astonishing.

 

And yes LisaBob, I would also enjoy asking those same sailors, soldiers, aviators, and marines what their thoughts might be about radical professors teaching American students that the real problem with the world are capitalist imperialist powers like America. I bet they could share with you a few choice Government Issue expletives.

 

Pappy

 

[FScouter]

What does this have to do with HUD grant funds for a Scouting soccer clinic??

[Hiromi]

Fscouter- Merlyn is a culture warrior, and he understands that there is a battle on. He is fighting it. Pretending that what he is doing is not a kind of warfare is dangerous. The ACLU has been effective in further damaging an already crippled scouting program in our area. THey helped get rid of United Way funding and scared the Public schools into not allowing scouters into the buildings. They are trying to wear us down. It is a classic battle strategy that dates at back to the Romans. The best way to fight them is to name them and show them for what they are.

 

The ACLU's shocking legacy

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45959

 

"One of the great myths of the 20th ? and now 21st ? century is the belief that the American Civil Liberties Union was an organization that had a noble beginning, but somehow strayed off course. That myth is untrue. The ACLU set a course to destroy America ? her freedom and her values ? right from the start."

 

Alan Sears, a former federal prosecutor in the Reagan administration, is president and CEO of the Alliance Defense Fund, America's largest legal alliance defending religious liberty through strategy, training, funding and litigation. He is co-author with Craig Osten of the new book "The ACLU vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values."

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Nessmuk writes:

As I read Hans Zeigers works that Pappy referenced, I am compelled to think that the enemies of our movement, and hence our values, succesfully gutted Candian Scouting from the inside

 

Zeiger has no credibility; all he's done here is a typical post hoc fallacy. Scouts Canada membership had been dropping decades before gays were an issue.

 

Consider Australia, and the UK too.. both failing tremendously..

 

Consider the BSA, cub scout membership down 22% over the past few years.

 

Pappy writes:

The ACLU has been effective in further damaging an already crippled scouting program in our area. THey helped get rid of United Way funding and scared the Public schools into not allowing scouters into the buildings.

 

I'd like to know how exactly the ACLU "helped get rid of United Way funding"? They typically only concern themselves with laws.

 

And if your public schools are not allowing scouters into their buildings but allowing other outside groups to use them, the ACLU would more than likely HELP you, because they don't like public officials treating groups differently depending on whether those officials agree with the views of that group or not.

[Nessmuk]

Gern - Your right! ain't the name of that law ironic? It's easier to visualize with the 2nd because it signifies a free man's last and ultimate resort to resist tyranny.. Folks in the UK are in effect slaves and many realize it now as they live in the view of a camera almost everywhere they walk.

 

Lisa Bob - The erosion of our liberties and associated values at home are an important element of the the long term strategy of those "terrorists" who made the 9/11 attacks.

 

Not to diminish the loss of life, but this ain't conventional as much as it's cultural..

 

Bringing it back to BSA, whether it's intentional or not, teh effect is ultimately the same.. Poison the BSA from within because frontal assaults (lawsuits) are not as effective.

 

You know how to boil a frog don't you...?

[stlscouter]

sooo no HUD money for a program that MAY benefit (some?) ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. which is the greater fraud?

[Nessmuk]

My last comment on this thread ... Yayyy!

 

The sad part is that we are talking "chump change" in both these instances with the HUD money.. If we were all paid $5/hour to bang away at this forum we'd have > 20X the amounts we are squabbling over..

 

BSA needs to forget public funding and get us all to pay to use this forum. !!