good enough for the Marines...

[OldGreyEagle]

You know, one could be a Congressman, a Senator, a President, a Supreme Court Justice and still not be eligible to be a member of the BSA

[Beavah]

You know, one could be a Congressman, a Senator, a President, a Supreme Court Justice and still not be eligible to be a member of the BSA

 

Yah, that's true, eh?

 

It still begs da question: Should it be true?

 

I wonder if we can't continue to be an organization where duty to God and Reverence is important, but it isn't a standard for membership. I reckon in such circumstances we might encourage some young leaders to rebel against their parents' silly notions of godlessness, eh?

 

Maybe that's the proper answer to Merlyn.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

My two cents...

 

At eleven years old, I expect very few children (beyond the 2d standard deviation) to be able to accurately define their faith. I was at a different Ash Wednesday service this week; I was trying to figure out why the Methodists were baptizing 4-9 year olds who said THEY wanted to be baptized. At that age, it's a parental responsibility, imo. After 14 or so (I think that's the age most Baptists use; certainly Lutherans confirm at the end of the 8th grade) I think the young person should be able to ask for themself.

 

Frankly, I want the kid that's without a church at age 11. I cannot evangelize/prosletyze in Scouting, but I sure can expose the kid to God.

 

Now, if his parents do not accept that we in Scouting think belief in some form of Supreme Being is important, and will not support exposure to God... then BSA isn't the right youth-serving movement for that family.

[CalicoPenn]

"What can you say to a dad who years later says "My son served two tours as a Marine in Iraq but he wasn't good enough for the Boy Scouts?"."

 

I'd say "I'm sorry the Boy Scouts wasn't good enough for your son".

 

Calico

 

[hops_scout]

So who is going to tell me that the BSA is the ONLY organization that it is possible for a Marine, a President, a Senator, etc to not be eligible for membership.

 

[Gold Winger]

"I'd say "I'm sorry the Boy Scouts wasn't good enough for your son"."

 

Why would you say that?

 

What other orgs might an atheist not belong to? Knights of Columbus, DeMolay, Royal Rangers, Awana and probably a few more.

 

I've known more than a few Marines and there were many that I wouldn't want in my neighborhood. I'm glad that they were Marines but still . . .

[John-in-KC]

I hope you never had any of those Marines you didn't want in your neighborhood being your engine, armament, avionics, or hydraulics mechanics GW.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Hmmmm . . . so the implication here is that just because someone is a Marine that they are good people and that I should like them. If that were true there would be no Marines who were general buttholes (can I say that without being moderated), rapists, murders, wife beaters, child beaters, alcoholics, drug users, or deserters.

[FireKat]

GW - you forgot Masons. How about a bit of intrigue....anyone?

[hot_foot_eagle]

I think the issue is that this was a good kid and the kind of boy we would be proud to have as a scout - except for the part about him being an atheist.

 

Assume for the sake of argument that he stepped right out of a Norman Rockwell painting. He has volunteered to serve his country on missions, whether righteous or immoral, where he can reasonably expect to be in mortal danger. What more would he have to do to become "the best kind of citizen"? That's the rationale we espouse, is it not?

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the true reason for the DRP is "because we can" and not because we should.

 

 

[Bob White]

Nothing in the youth application rejecting the scout. The parents rejecting scouting because it did not support the choice to raise their son as an athiest. The family rejected the values of the BSa program. that is well withing their rights as parents. Just as what values the BSA wants their membership requirements to be is within their rights.

[Lisabob]

That overlooks the larger question Bob. Yes the BSA has the legal right to determine its membership requirements and the DRP fits within that right. Yes, parents have the right to decide what organizations, especially what religious organizations, their children may join.

 

The larger question is a judgment call on whether the BSA should have this requirement, whether it makes good sense. Clearly people differ on their response to that.

 

IMO the DRP keeps out many families who would have been a great fit for the organization, and it does so to little real benefit. As others have suggested and as has been argued here before, dropping the DRP might not even mean dropping "reverence" from the program but would merely require that people not declare their faith in writing (by signing) to join.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Maybe the fix to the DRP is Clause 5: "This declaration does not apply to youth, nor to their non-leader-enrolled families, Parents of youth who join must be informed of the Declaration, and that leaders will encourage a duty to God amongst youth members."

 

That makes the DRP

- adult explicit for membership

- youth wide open, allowing them to explore God.

- a guideline for the program overall, making duty to God an explicit part.

 

I don't know if this makes sense or not...

[Lisabob]

makes more sense than what we're doing now!

[Stosh]

It always amazes me why people feel it necessary to make demands on others. If BSA requires religion in it's membership, so be it. If the Catholic church requires the same thing, so be it. If one is not interested in joining a group that has a faith basis to it because one is an agnostic, then just don't join! There are those out there besides oneself that have a right to their own beliefs as well as anyone else. If one doesn't like it, don't hang out with them, make your own group, or do something else. I just get tired of people dictating to others what they can and cannot do under the disguise of some form of "liberty". One cannot say they are promoting freedom and then take it away from others.

 

Stosh