good enough for the Marines...

[Lisabob]

RememberSchiff posts in another thread: What can you say to a dad who years later says "My son served two tours as a Marine in Iraq but he wasn't good enough for the Boy Scouts?".

 

I want to ask you for clarification, RS. What sort of affiliation or interest are you looking for, and not finding, that causes you to turn away families? Because my understanding is that BSA does not require any affiliation at all and that BSA members can certainly be (to use John-in-KC's term) "unchurched." In fact, I'd say about half of the boys in my son's troop fit this description. If pushed, most (not all) would probably give you some vaguely Christian doctrine reflective of the dominant religious culture in our area, but they and their families would not identify as either "affiliated" or terribly "interested." They're not actively opposed to religion either though. Would you turn them away from your troop, and if so, why?

[RememberSchiff]

They were honest, hard-working people. For that family, belief in God was not a part of their life nor would they "bluff" it for the sake of appearances as some do. They had no problem with others believing or not. Their son would not attend Scout Sunday or be reverent,...I said that was contrary to the Scout Oath and Law and troop policy (Scout Sunday) so I had to turn them away. I remember the dad lecturing me on freedom of religion. Well that's the USA not the BSA. Good people. His son would have been a great SPL.

[Lisabob]

Help me understand this, and I am not trying to pick apart what you said, just to understand it. When you say he would not be reverent, do you mean that he and his family actively denied belief in any sort of higher being at all or do you mean that he and his family did not conform to your, or your troop s, or your COs, interpretation of reverence?

 

In the former case I would have to agree he did not meet the current BSA joining requirements. In the latter case, while he might not have fit well with your particular troop, I wonder if he could not have found another unit with a different understanding of "reverence."

 

(This is where I find the BSA DRP to be very unfortunate. On one hand, it keeps out fine young men and women who have the courage of their convictions and who would also both benefit from, and be of benefit to, the program. On the other hand, it allows for belief in "Mother Nature" or the "rock in the back yard" or other such amorphous and potentially empty (?) ideas as a convenient "dodge" around really explaining what, exactly, constitutes acceptable types and degrees of "reverence" in the eyes of the BSA powers that be.)

 

ETA: And on the THIRD hand (I seem to have extras) the BSA is still rather uncomfortable with religious groups like Wiccans who might express a coherent belief in "Mother Nature" as more than simply a "dodge" around the DRP. Witness the goofiness surrounding the efforts to get the BSA to recognize a Wiccan religious award program, as has been discussed by others at length. We cannot have it both (all three) ways.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[RememberSchiff]

Sorry I was unclear. They did not believe in God.

 

I mentioned other units but he wanted to join his buddies in my unit. His buddies were a bunch of devils, Christian though.

 

Another aspect, for me anyway, I think 11-18 year old is too young to apply a religion standard. The boy likely follows his parents.

[Lisabob]

Agreed - either they parrot what their parents say, or if they're deeper thinkers, they're still trying to figure out what they believe and are walking on shifting sands anyway more often than not. We have one boy in the troop who has been a Christian, a Muslim, and a couple of kinds of Buddhist, all in the last 6 months or so. Right now he self-identifies as a Deist a la Thomas Jefferson. He can explain what it means too and to his credit, did so at school when his teacher told him Jefferson was an atheist.

 

Too bad you lost the boy and his family over this.

[Bob White]

Schiff

 

Are there any members of the BSA who would not meet the requirements to be in the Marine Corps?

 

If so, why would it be surprising that there will be some members of the Marines who would not meet the requirememts to be in the BSA?

 

Who gave you the impression that being in one organization would automatically qualify someone to be in the other?

[Beavah]

they're still trying to figure out what they believe and are walking on shifting sands anyway more often than not

 

Yah, I agree with this, eh?

 

Sat on a number of boards of review where boys declared themselves to be atheists. Made for good discussion. By the next board of review they were the president of the church youth group.

 

I think we've got to meet kids where they're at, walk the road with 'em together for a ways. Eventually they'll find their path to go, whether it's rejecting ours (but still takin' things from us that will guide 'em down their road), or embracing some variant of ours.

 

I reckon when we're makin' membership decisions up front, it's all about whether BSA Scouting is a good fit for the parents.

 

Beavah

[RememberSchiff]

"Who gave you the impression that being in one organization would automatically qualify someone to be in the other?"

 

His father. It was his impression that a young man who joined the Marines should have been allowed to join scouts.

 

So you don't agree. Thank his son for the privilege.

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

The Marines will take many that we wouldn't want in Scouts.

[Bob White]

I think Marines are fine Marines and they do their job well and I am greatful for that.

 

But you didn't answer my question. Are there members of the BSA that would not be accepted as members of the USMC?

[Hiromi]

From This Link:

 

http://www.stewsmith.com/linkpages/usmcPFT.htm

 

 

Marine Corps Fitness Standards - IST and PFT

 

StewSmith.com | April 2007

 

The Physical Fitness Test is administered every six months. All Marines are provided time to train and are expected to maintain an adequate degree of physical fitness. The standard physical fitness test consists of three events that measure cardiovascular endurance, muscular strength and endurance and mobility.

 

The Initial Strength Test (IST) for Recruits

 

If you are thinking about joining the USMC, you will have to pass the IST Initial Strength Test. The IST is a shortened version of the USMC PFT, a recruit only has to do pull-ups, sit-ups, and a 1.5 mile run. The minimum standards for passing the Initial Strength Test are as follows:Male

 

Female

 

2 Pull Ups

 

Flexed Arm Hang - 12 seconds

 

35 Sit Ups (2 minutes)

 

35 Sit Ups (2 Minutes)

 

1.5 Mile Run - 13:30

 

1 Mile Run - 10:30

 

 

In Accordance with Marine Corps Order (MCO) P1100.72B page 148 discusses IST fitness and weight standards. MILITARY PERSONNEL ROCUREMENT MANUAL, VOLUME 2, ENLISTED PROCUREMENT, paragraph 3274, all Marine Corps recruits, male and female, requiring recruit training (boot camp) are required to pass the IST prior to shipping to recruit training.

 

 

 

 

The USMC Physical Fitness Test (PFT)

 

Male Marines will perform "dead-hang pull-ups, abdominal crunches, and a 3.0-mile run. Female Marines will complete the "flexed-arm" hang, abdominal crunches, and a 3.0 - mile run with a pull-up option

Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Points - Male

 

Points

Pull-Ups

Crunches

3-Mile Run

 

 

 

[Hiromi]

Boy Scouts are not drug tested either.......Pappy

 

 

DOD Urinalysis Test (Drug Test) Results

 

 

Join the Discussion

Visit Our Message Forum

 

Related Resources

More About DOD Drug Tests

Even More About DOD Drug Tests

 

The Defense Department is continuing its anti-drug efforts with a new policy that involves more frequent random testing of active duty military, reservists and civilian employees.

 

Signed by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz on July 31 (2002), the new policy reflects the reality that the nation is at war, Andre Hollis, deputy assistant secretary of defense for counternarcotics, said Aug. 13.

 

"It's even more critical during war that our service members are mentally alert and physically fit. Drug use is inconsistent with that," he emphasized. "I'm sure that's the message you'll hear from the NCOs all the way up to the secretary of defense."

 

Hollis said he was tasked to do a bottom-up review of DoD's drug policy after assuming his job in August last year. The new policy is a result of that review, he noted. The primary purpose of the policy is to reduce demand for and the use of illegal drugs within DoD.

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

"His buddies were a bunch of devils, Christian though." Heh, heh, another reference to that mythical angel, those Christian devils are certainly distinctive.

 

RememberSchiff, as I read it you acknowledged that they were fine and upstanding in every way and that the boy would have been a great SPL. But you made a judgement based on a conversation with the family and turned them away.

This is the part I about which I am not perfectly clear. I am required to make prospective members aware of the membership requirements. I am not required to make the decision for them regarding their ability to meet those requirements. That decision is theirs to make because only they know what their true beliefs are.

Did you make that decision?

Or, based on your conversation, did they make that decision?

[Gunny2862]

 

You can be a Marine without any expressed faith in a deity of some sort - you can't be a Scout w/o this requirement.

You can be a Scout/Scouter without passing a USMC PFT - you can't be a Marine w/o this requirement.

 

For instance and flipping the question, I'm not seeing a lot of Scouters who could not meet the minimum PFT requirements below, some, but not the majority - frankly not even the age adjusted minimum requirements. So it's a good thing for the current BSA Scouters that those Marine PFT requirements(or height/weight standards for that matter) aren't levied for Scouters to be Scouters. I can still pass a PFT but the meeting the height/weight standard is gone.

 

I might point out that the PFT information posted above might get you in. And reflects only female activities. But there is no way you're staying in doing those MINIMUMS.

And the USMC PFT (Physical Fitness Test)

For men, requires:

 

3 Pullups, 40 situps, and a less than 28 minute run time for 3 miles. Also as as minimums for 17- to 26 year olds. Plus an additional 40 points as described below.

 

Each one of these scores is the minimum for the category and is not enough to pass on their own, you must garner for the 17-26 age group an additional 40 points by any combination of: 5 points per pullup, 1 point per situp/crunch, 1 point per additional second less of run time. The additional points brings one to a score of 135. The bottom of the 3rd class PFT rating, 175 (another 40 points) moves one into the 2nd class range, and 50 more points puts one in the bottom of the 1st class range at 225. 300 is the maximum score(20 pullups 80 situps(old test) and an 18 minute run for those who are interested).

 

You will not (in ALL probability) be able to advance without significantly improving those minimum scores into at least the middle of the 2nd class range. Promotions are competitive in the Corps and and those who have 1st class scores will almost always advance faster than lesser qualified Marines. And without rank advancement it is extremely likely that you will not be retained in service. The higher the rank the less likely for enlisted Marines.

 

Now as to being a Marine as a qualification to be a Boy Scout - are we talking about a boy who became a Marine or Marine who wants to be a Scouter.

 

And either way it comes down to if the BSA puts in a requirement the Marines don't then it should be pretty easy to recognize that that one requirement could keep one out.

 

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

Well the family decided to be atheists and the BSA decided to ban atheists from membership and then there was the troop policy of Scout Sunday attendance. I wasn't part of any of those decisions.

 

Look at the Boy Scout Application that I handed them, page 1 "As a Boy Scout, I will meet the obligations of living the Scout Oath or Promise"... in the right margin is the Scout Oath and Promise.

 

sign __________________

 

From their perspective, they walked away. From my perspective, I followed the BSA and troop policy and turned them away.

 

Yeah, I thought then and still do that their son would have been a great scout and natural leader.(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)