BSA SCHISM- RED STATE SCOUTS/BLUE STATE SCOUTS

[Hiromi]

Beav,

 

I tend to agree with you Beav. The scouts are definitely the baby in the bath water in this conflict. Boy scouting does have at its center both a progressive liberal streak AND a notion of conserving an idea of what is best and decent and productive about man and civilization.

 

But the various emotional issues have tried to re-engineer basic tenants and assumptions about the role of Man in his environment. They have become hostile to the Judeo-Christian ethic and cosmology in a Nation where its majority is Judeo-Christian by sensibility and belief.

 

We may have come to an impasse with two belligerent camps. I wish this were not so. But each side seems unwilling the compromise enough to agree on a national scouting program they all will embrace.

 

Maybe we should think about a way to diversify scouting to accommodate different groups of people.

 

Pappy

 

[Hunt]

"Maybe we should think about a way to diversify scouting to accommodate different groups of people."

 

We already have it. It's the natural variation in units that comes from sponsorship by different COs, and from the "character" that units take on over time. Already there are troops that lean toward what you describe as "red" or "blue." And yet there is still enough common ground that those troops can all wear the same (or at least similar) uniforms, meet at a Camporee, go to summer camp, earn the same advancements, recite the same Oath and Law, etc. If somebody really wants an organization at one of the extremes, he or she is free to start it and call it something other than Scouting.

 

To put it another way, I think it is highly unlikely that BSA will experience a schism, whether it retains or changes its membership policies. What could happen, I think, is that rather than splitting down the middle, most of the middle would stay in and one extreme or the other would split off.

[OldGreyEagle]

As I understand the three Aims of scouting, to develop Charactor, Citizenship training and personal fitness there is no nod to what political thought should be favored, only that the scout be a good citizen. Cannot citizens of a country disagree about that needs be done and how, and still live in the same country?

[Hiromi]

Maybe you're all right. I wish it were so. But I think that BSA needs to communicate better that it is what you say it is.

 

I think that it may be wishful thinking that we can all find in BSA something to meet the various needs of the public in a scouting program.

 

I think if BSA wants to both expand membership and to prevent Schism, they need to allow for irregular variations of BSA that specialize towards the values of different constituencies.

 

But the way I see it there are two very distinct camps that are at odds over fundamental outlooks on the world, the environment, politics, religion, education, the role of government, values such as parenting and manners et al.

 

So I tend to think BSA does not allow the diversity of options as it has been suggested.

 

 

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[OldGreyEagle]

Pappy you might want to chack out

 

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/

 

"We've asked him to search his heart, to confer with family members, to give this great thought," Brad Farmer, the Scout executive of the Chief Seattle Council of the Boy Scouts, told The Sun of Bremerton.

 

"If he says he's an avowed atheist, he does not meet the standards of membership."

 

On membership applications, Boy Scouts and adult leaders must say they recognize some higher power, not necessarily religious. "Mother Nature would be acceptable," Farmer said.

 

Thats pretty broad

[scoutingagain]

"I think that it may be wishful thinking that we can all find in BSA something to meet the various needs of the public in a scouting program.

 

I think if BSA wants to both expand membership and to prevent Schism, they need to allow for irregular variations of BSA that specialize towards the values of different constituencies."

 

See Hunts post above.

 

Currently there are only two relatively small constituencies to whom the BSA program is not open to.

 

About the only way the BSA could be more inclusive in it's membership policies would be to allow for full local option for COs to set their own membership standards.(Something I would be willing to support.)

 

SA

 

 

[Hiromi]

The problem may be that more inclusion speaks volumes- as does more exclusion.

 

Maybe what BSA needs to do is just get out of the Values business all together and be an outdoor program par excellence.

No oath to a higher being, no difficult language like reverence.

 

This seems to be the trend any ways. From what I have seen, Scout law and the oath have been going the way of the uniform in BSA. Kids hate uniforms it seems. Kids dont want to live by some Victorian notion of honor and manners. Parents dont seem willing to enforce these standards with their boys so why should scouting?

 

I think an overtly Sectarian scouting organization, or an overtly Nationalistic Scouting organization, may be the answer for some. Losing the uniform and the values program will make things a lot easier for everyone.

 

My boys, on the other hand, seem to aspire to succeeding and participating in the Christian Soldier Scout model I have been going with. So BSA seems to be accommodating me and my CO and scouts parents and our unorthodox unit. As soon as she says I can't play this game, I may indeed consider a different scouting organization or forming my own.

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[le Voyageur]

 

 

hmmmmm......checking the calendar. Nope,not 1860...whew!!!!

[le Voyageur]

My boys, on the other hand, seem to aspire to succeeding and participating in the Christian Soldier Scout model I have been going with.....pappy

 

 

hmmmmm.....double checking me calendar. Nope, not the 12th century either...

[scoutingagain]

"So BSA seems to be accommodating me and my CO and scouts parents and our unorthodox unit."

 

Exactly. So what's your beef with the BSA? That they accomodate other units and their scout's parents to operate a scout program in line with their own "values" that are not exactly the same as yours?

 

SA

[le Voyageur]

As I read, and reread Pappy's posting, I think the "beef" is that Pappy wants a fully Christanized BSA, and for others to "follow his lead". It's simply not about Red State/Blue State as I see it.

 

Just as I don't belong to the Royal Rangers, I would quit BSA in a heartbeat the moment should it becomes a fully Christinized organization...let's at least keep it secular, and stop dividing our scouts up as booty for some hidden political agenda that pushes only a one note theological meme....

 

 

 

[Hiromi]

le Voyageur,

 

Don't be too sure that knowing what time it is is any guarantee of knowing that the current fashion is good, true, or beautiful. I think personally that the people who believe that there is a status quos that we must adapt to to be normal and with the times are in real danger of giving up what is truly timeless and worthwhile.

 

One of the benefits of being Christian is that the bible guides us in these matters, and cautions us to be weary of the world, especially when it concerns our children.

 

We have devolved democracy down into adolescent and pre-teens for the past 30 years and the result has been power being drained from the parents, and especially the father. We have been seeing generations of uncouth and ill mannered lunk-heads because we have been giving up the reigns of parenting and schooling and spiritually forming our children.

 

Secularizing scouting is not a good idea for our culture. But may be a better business model to perpetuate BSA.

 

I was serious when I wrote that if BSA wants to expand, maybe they should seriously consider getting out of the values business and be the Youth outdoor adventure organization in America.

 

Would I prefer a Catholic centered scouting organization for me? Sure. But I could imagine a Jewish Scouting Organization, an Islamic Scouting Organization, LDS, Jehovah Witness, Evangelical Christian, an Ecumenical Scouting Organization, An Atheist Scouting Organization, a Wikan Scouting Organization, and a Secular Scouting organization, etc. Whats wrong with scouting being tailor fitted for the CO or even a Nation-wide affiliation of COs? If it increased the scouting movement by satisfying the particular moral and ethical desires of target groups, whos harmed?

 

I think across the board secularization becomes synonymous with anti-clericalism and entrenched atheism as we see prevalent in the Universities and Public Schools.

 

BSA National should focus on what it should be best at, which it seems to me is outdoor adventure and its requisite skills. If it allowed COs and Affiliations of COs to design their own BSA-variation how would this be a bad thing?

 

Pappy

 

[le Voyageur]

One of the benefits of being Christian is that the bible guides us in these matters, and cautions us to be weary of the world, especially when it concerns our children. Pappy

 

My problem with a Christain government be it at the national level or within an organization is that the Bible is full of "thou shalls", "thou shall nots", fiats and decrees. It is not democratic, it lacks a Bill of Rights, has no trail by jury or due process, allows for cruel and unusual punishment, allows slavery, reduces women to property, and promotes ethnic and racial hatred. Kings and leaders are chosen by lineage, or the pretense of the will of god, peons get no say....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hiromi]

le Voyageur,

 

You have the disagreeable habit, le Voyaguer, shared by many on this forum, Gold Winger included, of picking one line of someones post and making a larger critical point you know darned well is neither in context nor the original intent of the poster, and which often times is only meant to trivialize and ridicule the posters position.

 

I am making a sincere attempt at communicating ideas and trying to keep this out of the realm of conjecturing about the motives of the individual posters. If you have a comment to make about my greater intentions, do a better job of looking at what I have actually written instead of trying to paint me as something I am not.

 

I wasnt arguing for an exclusively monolithic Christian-exclusive BSA.

 

Your views of religion as stated in the previous post seem to be very widely shared by the other contributors on this site. This goes to my greater point that a secular organization is not benign, but it becomes over time anti-clerical; as we have seen in public schools and Universities).

 

I meet many scouters who harbor very anti-religious views, yet do their best to keep this on the down low so as not to upset any of the sectarian natives in their scout units.

 

I say get it all out in the open. Allow professional scouters who specialize in Cope training or Pioneering skills to focus on that and forget about the values part of scouting. Let the COs and their affiliations work on designing a values program if they want one.

 

I was only suggesting that maybe BSA drop the pretense and get out of the values game at National- and have National simply serve as a service provider of Scouting Out Door Adventure and Training for Boy Scouting and other groups interested in scouting skills and outdoor adventure and adventure training. Change the business model to a service provider with many diverse cliental. Maybe lose the uniform as well and allow COs to have their own uniforms that they think will reflect their units particular values. Maybe some scouters will have kilts and bagpipes at a jamboree, another may have the camouflage BDUs, another might go with a polo shirt and khakis whatever.

 

Allow COs and National affiliations of COs to organize Values Specific Scouting organizations that are like states within a Federal BSA system. I would think it would be interesting on a number of fronts to see jamborees where Wikan Scouts, Catholic Scouts, Baptist Scouts, Jewish Scouts, Atheist Scouts, BP scouts, Rangers, Venture Units, all celebrated scouting and at the same time got a chance to see each other as a reflection of the values that they and their CO and families hold dear. I think esprit de corps would increase. Competition and a sharing of ideas and values would take place.

 

 

As I have stated before, I am for a broader scouting program that will attract and keep more boys. I think that scouting is a force for good in our culture, and it should be allowed to grow in the different soils of America. You can be a scout and look like a dough boy, or a Hessian, or a Jedi warrior, a Golfer, the Mounties, or a Marine.

 

Pappy

 

[fgoodwin]

SA writes:I started to respond to this question but decided it's an absurd assumption. Scouting is apolitical. Anyone who sees it as an extension of politics, part of a culture war, red or blue, one way or another doesn't get it.Right, tell that to the Scouts in the color guard who were booed by California delegates to the 2000 Democratic National Convention . . .