BSA SCHISM- RED STATE SCOUTS/BLUE STATE SCOUTS

[Hiromi]

I agree with Nessmuk's assessment of Scouting in the Thread Scouting Philosophy Divisions ".

 

I don't wish the BSA to have a schism, but I also don't wish to be a member of and promote a movement which goes against my fundamental ethics and beliefs..I predict BSA will very likely see a major schism (like a 50 /50) if there is an elimination or major relaxation of our stance on one or more key issues like religious beliefs and God or acceptance of homosexuals as members..Oddly I don't think such a schism will reduce the impact or presence of scouting, but will likely draw many people towards the movement more strongly. I see this in action as many parents I know don't want to be in Scouting because it in reality is too wishy-washy and "caught on the fencepost".. ------Nessmuk

 

 

I think a schism may be inevitable and maybe even preferable if we consider our nation and where it has been heading. A schism will, in my estimation, reflect the cold civil, cultural, and ideological war that seems to currently being waged in our country with no end in sight.

 

I suggest the formation of two new branches of Boy Scouts of America branching off the current BSA or replacing it altogether, calling them , for this discussion thread, The Blue State Boy Scouts of America, and The Red State Boy Scouts of America.

 

 

The Blue State Boy Scouts

 

Liberals, especially of the radical variety, might be attracted to a scouting that mirrored more of what the European and Canadian scouts are doing. They can be lax on uniforms, have no mention of God in their oath or law, have homosexual and transgender families feel at home, emphasize the zero trace environmental aspect of ladder day scouting, an emphasis on the critical role of America as it pertains to injustices against the working man, the native American, the Races other than White, its intervention overseas, and its contribution to pollution, global warming, and energy over-usage.. This might also attract liberal professionals, college professors and teacher families, and Liberal Church groups and generate new liberal FOS contributions.

 

 

The Red State Boy Scouts

 

Conservatives, especially the social conservatives, on the other hand might be more attracted to an overtly patriotic and God & Country scouting with an emphasis on uniforms with an exceptionalist view of U.S. History. In such a scouting the boys would learn of Mans contribution to understanding of the physical world through science, agriculture, philosophy, art and architecture, etc... There would be a special emphasis on civic duty and the ceremonial rites of the flag, traditional BP scouting, and male adult leadership in both the Cub and Scout ranks. There might be a focus on the building and pioneer skills aspect of scouting. This might also attract military families, blue collar tradesman families, recent immigrants who have conservative and religious roots and want their boys to assimilate and learn English, and Conservative Church groups, and Conservative FOS contributions.

 

 

I think both of these two might draw more form a base that is equally repelled from scouting in its current incarnation.

 

It could be an overall gain for scouting in general.

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Lisabob]

Yeah, as a professional political scientist, I don't buy this red/blue schism business. The evidence is simply not that clear cut, unless of course you are a pundit looking for a simple argument with which to sow divisiveness and upon which to hang your hat. But if you look at the details what you find is that most states are really quite purple. There are a couple of demographers and a physicist at University of Michigan who have published some very interesting (and enjoyable) work on the matter. Here's a link to one of their sets of maps: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

I suppose there are people who would be more comfortable in one or the other of the extremes that Pappy describes (although his description of what the Red State scouts would be like is a bit different from how I would put it). Personally, I would find either extreme undesirable.

[evmori]

My favorite color is green

[Hiromi]

I would find it interesting to hear what you'all imagine a Red State/Blue State scouting organization might look like. I wrote those descriptions in haste and not as a fixed programme.

 

And Lisabob, I think that what we have currently in scouting is more like that purple color you describe. But some people prefer red- and others prefer blue- and some of them really don't care for the other color at all.

 

Pappy

[OldGreyEagle]

Before we go down this road, I have to say that the premise that there is a division in the BSA is one I dont suscribe to even though it wa attributed to me

[Hiromi]

I saw the crack first form under your feet Old Grey Eagle- even though you were quick to point at all the other posters in the room in denial. LOL Just kidding. I wasn;t thinking of you Old Grey Eagle.

 

This is a theoretical exercise. I don't have science to back up my claim about the cultural/ideological divide in our country- it is more of a gut instinct. I think John Edwards was right about two Americas - but just not in the way he described them.

 

There are two camps in this country that feel that there is a cultural war being waged against them. There is a third and much larger camp that doesnt think in these terms.

 

That is a simplification, I understand. But the BSA has to deal ultimately in some generalities about America if it is to best continue its mission.

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[OldGreyEagle]

You have to explain that last comment, it doesnt make sense to me

[scoutingagain]

I started to respond to this question but decided it's an absurd assumption. Scouting is apolitical. Anyone who sees it as an extension of politics, part of a culture war, red or blue, one way or another doesn't get it.

 

 

SA

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

SA, you may have a point, B-P himself said that Boy Scouts was non-military, non-sectarian, non-political and non-class. Then again, you can listen to what he had to say:

 

http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/speeches.html

 

Select B-P's message to the Public

 

BTW, he does say that Boy Scouts have a school of charactor and citizenship, wow that school thing... then he does say you cant use ordinary classroom means to give the boys charactor... Who knew, its a combination thing, a continuum as it were,

[Hiromi]

LISABOB,

 

Everything has become political. Schooling children, religion, consumption (Wal-Mart or Target?), Pro-life or Pro choice? Birth Control- Abstinence?, News Media Choice (CNN or FOX) - and yes- even what activity you pt your son into.

 

I know many people who think BSA is a fascist organization. These same people think that George Bush and most Republicans are fascists as well.

 

These people may be grossly incorrect in their view of BSA, but it is their perception.

 

I know many people who think Christians are very stupid, ignorant, brainwashed, mean-spirited, closet fascists as well.

 

I went to College with these people. They were my professors. I see these people in the professional world. They are out there in very large numbers.

 

BSA has been politicized, whether you want to pretend that it is apolitical or not. And it has become politicized because everything has been politicized by a Left especially that has been educated in a Marxist Critical model of learning and understanding of the world.

 

The conflict theory being peddled in the soft science departments (Sociology/ cultural anthropology, psychology, political science) of high schools and universities has been teaching generations of Americans and Europeans to view the world in a highly critical conflict model. This goes a lot to explaining the politicalization of America.

 

Vitriolic language like The great Satan, The great Imperial power etc.. abound in youth culture and now in the adult media. And BSA is seen by this radical element as a Hitler Youth-type organization to replicate the Imperial Colonial model of the Aggressor nations.

 

Pretend all you want- but that is the kind of nonsense that has gained sway at our educational institutions and its effect is now becoming evident.

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[scoutingagain]

"I know many people who think BSA is a fascist organization"

 

Yes and others think it's a conservative, Christian organization.

 

Neither group really understands what scouting is about. Thankfully, I don't believe both groups combined represent the majority.

 

SA

[RememberSchiff]

So "us" and "them"...

 

I guess I'm with "them" and "them" gets Philmont.

 

"Us" can have Irving and all the contents.

 

Some units are "blue" and other units "red" as the program and CO dictates vary so much. I have turned away great families from my "red" unit and directed them to "blue" units. Sent about a dozen secular families over the past five years to a Reform Jewish synagogue unit but only a few joined. I am haunted by the boys who ask "Why can't I be with my friends?" I wince whenever someone says "Scouting is for the boys". Whose boys?

 

The BSA has turned away or turned-off some great people, and the BSA is less for it. We need leaders that unite us in the common values we share, not divide us. Or was Lincoln wrong?

 

 

[Hiromi]

Lincoln needed to wage the bloodiest war in our history to maintain unity. I was offering a hypothetical peaceful solution so more Americans can experience National scouting.

 

Pappy

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh know, it's interestin'...

 

I think the whole red state/blue state/polarized politics game is a hangover from the Vietnam era and the baby boom generation just reliving its old fight again and again. Like a bunch of school kids that never grew up.

 

I'm heartened by the next generation that's grown past all that. Perhaps Obama, but I also find it interesting how young people have embraced centrist or libertarian mavericks like McCain and Ron Paul. I reckon the next generations are goin' to put us all to shame by embracin' pragmatic solutions rather than emotional causes.

 

B