impressions and realities

[Lisabob]

In the 4-H thread, Ed quotes from the 4-H literature regarding religion as follows:

"it creates the impression that 4-H is not open to all

regardless of their religious standing."

 

Well now here's something I think is important enough to consider. Note that the quoted text stresses the "impression" of exclusion, not necessarily the fact of exclusion. Boy I wish we would pay more attention to this in scouting, where even aside from the *actual* exclusionary policies of the BSA (not to belittle them, and I would prefer to see those changed too) many people seem to believe we are also a Christian (or perhaps, Judeo-Christian) organization. Of course we aren't. But impressions matter, and people don't change them easily either.

 

Just recently I had a fairly heated exchange with a woman who was upset that the troop comes back from most camp outs late morning/early afternoons on Sundays. She would like to have us return earlier so her children could make it to their church's service at 11am. Given traveling distances, it ain't gonna happen and she was politely informed of this, but also suggested she pick up her kids from the campsite early on Sunday morning if it is an issue for her family. She went ballistic - accusing the troop of forcing her family to choose between scouting and church, when after all, scouting "is a Christian program." No amount of discussion would talk her out of that view. At risk of re-starting the argument I will likely dig out the appropriate BSA reference for her perusal at the next committee meeting. I'm going to make extra sure to include that interview with the fellow (don't recall who it was though?)who said a scout could hold a rock in his back yard to be a higher power, for all he cared. That should be worth a grin. :')

 

As it happens most people in this area are Christian, but for those who are not, it isn't hard to see where they might get an impression that they are not welcome from a person like that. And yes, she's a trained leader who should know better. And no, she's not unique, I'm sure.

 

So in 2008 I hope we will all do our best to give more accurate impressions of who and what the BSA is, and to highlight the many good things our organization does in our communities. Let's work on changing some impressions.

[OldGreyEagle]

Lisabob, look in the threads about Lamb, the Eagle in who was tossed out because he is an atheist, I think the rock comment is in it.

 

Also, do you have the slick publication on the religious awards recognized by BSA? If indeed the BSA is a Christian organization, how would she explain religious awards to Buddhists, Hindu, Islamic, and a bunch of others you can get off the PRAY web site

[scoutingagain]

Lisabob,

 

Does your unit do a Scout Service on Sunday mornings or before you break camp? Many units do and you could mention that. Many units don't, the unit I serve included, but you if you are aware of units that make faith a greater part of unit's activities, she might find one of those Troops more appealing. There are units that are all Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Islamic etc., depending on the desires of a particular CO. Many other are more like yours and mine, and are much more open to all faiths and the religious aspects of scouting are a minor part of the unit's activities.

 

So she needn't choose between scouting and her faith. She may need to choose from one scout unit or another.

 

SA

[evmori]

One solution to your problem, Lisabob, would be to let mom pick up her Scouts early Sunday like she requested. Another solution would be to have a Scouts Own Service prior to breaking camp.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

Impressions are in the eye of the beholder. If a woman wants to believe that Scouting is "a Christian program" in spite of reality there isn't much you can do to change her opinion. We should only be clear that we don't ACT like a Christian group. Eventually, a person will change his perception to match reality, well at least we hope so.

[Lisabob]

Ed, she's more than welcome to pick up her kids early (as do a few other families in the troop), but she found that to be an inadequate solution because it would inconvenience *her.* For whatever the reason may be, our troop has not done Scout Sunday services on camp outs. We are not chartered by any church and no one has brought this up anytime recently (ie, not within the last 3-4 years). I'm certainly not opposed to it, but I think it is sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie, as with this one exception, the rest of the troop seems quite happy with things the way they are. It has been politely suggested to this woman that perhaps she'd like to find another troop - there are three others right in town who are each chartered by a different Christian church, for example. But I think she prefers to stay put for whatever reason.

 

My bigger point was, this lady misunderstands the BSA's position and is unwilling to accept that she's wrong. She'd probably pitch a fit if she knew we also had a couple of Muslim scouts and other non-Christians in our troop and in other troops in the area. In the process she has mis-informed other people, particularly a couple of local cub leaders whom she has managed to convince that she knows what she's talking about (she doesn't). This kind of behavior, which I think isn't all that uncommon sadly enough, certainly produces an impression of exclusivity, to the detriment of kids and the BSA everywhere.

[FScouter]

I'm always amazed when folks put more credence in the wrong information they are fed, than in the reality that is. Then again, perhaps folks listen, cluck their tongue, and mentally dismiss what they've heard. I tend to not be concerned too much about others spreading false stories. Truth speaks for itself.

[scoutldr]

The official BSA policy is the "Decaration of Religious Principle" available on every application form. I would have the COR or CC send her a letter, stating that troop activities will not be altered to accomodate one family and if that doesn't agree with her, attach a list of other troops in the area. Same as if she were LDS...she is more than welcome to come pick up her kid on Sat night, but the whole troop will not be forced to adhere to LDS policy.

 

It's usually not productive to argue with the "defiantly ignorant". Just send a letter and make it clear that's the final answer.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[scoutingagain]

Lisabob,

 

You said, "My bigger point was, this lady misunderstands the BSA's position and is unwilling to accept that she's wrong." That's probably true, but I suspect no amount of evidence you provide her is going to change her mind and she will continue to express her thoughts on the matter to whoever will listen to her.

 

Take some deep breaths, count to 10, go on a hike. I believe your scouter energy might be more productively spent than trying to change her mind. Just my 2cents.

 

Good luck.

 

SA

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm not sure that I've ever seen evidence that we created a barrier to non-Christians, other than perhaps the specifically religious CO's like LDS.

 

In fact, around here, it's not unusual for Christian church-sponsored units to have Jews and Hindus and a small scatterin' of Muslims. For some reason, they like da Catholic units a lot of the time. Can't figure that out, since the Catholic units tend to have a Catholic feel to 'em. But I guess they're welcoming, or the "feel" is a good one.

 

Maybe it's just the comfort that religious expression is valued in some way, rather than absent.

 

I think you're playin' your problem parent wrong, Lisabob. A Scout is Reverent, and does his Duty to God, eh? I think yeh acknowledge her concern, and provide an opportunity for the lad and a few interested adults and troop-mates to do a Scouts Own or other religious service or experience on campouts. Yeh might be surprised what it adds to your program. Yeh might even find that it makes things more welcoming for your non-Christian (but believing) families.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah has a point,

 

Make the kid a Chaplain's Aide and then have him put togther the Scouts Own services. Invite his mother to accompany him on his initial services. Is there CHaplain Aide training in your area? You know, the training that stresses the importance of non-denominational refereneces?

[acco40]

Some individuals and churches (lower case) are not to friendly with "Scout's own" type services because:

 

1) No $$ come in to the church

2) No "recognition" from fellow parishioners/congregationists/neighbors

3) Control issues

4) Effort may be involved.

 

:-)

[Eagledad]

While I would not lay this problem on the back of a scout, I do think there is an opportunity for the troop here. Maybe its time to ask an adult develop a Sunday service for scouts to lead. Im not much on Scouts Own because they are rather bland (boring) and seem to miss the point. Instead I have seen great responses with troops that do a service of a different religion at each campout.

 

As for the mother, I think there is information in your Wood Badge stuff that you can show her.

 

Barry

 

[Venividi]

I dont think that Lisabob was looking for advice, but rather using the experience to highlight her thought about impressions vs. realities.

 

In my SM days, I did move the troop to add a scouts own on sunday mornings before leaving camp. Bland and boring - perhaps, but short and simple. I didnt approach it as the point being the message delivered in the scouts own, but rather the message of doing something more than grace at meals (with respect to the 12th point). I think it added to the bonding, though really couldnt put my finger on it until I accompanied a crew to Philmont, where I cam away with the impression that the stop on the trail to read the daily devotion did help towards bringing the crew together.

[scoutingagain]

Excellent point V.! And thanks.

 

Sometimes it's not so much what you do as the fact that you do something. For a unit, such as the one I serve, that doesn't do much in the way religious expression, a simple non-denominational prayer, thanking the Great Scoutmaster for the outdoor experience, fellowship of other scouts and a safe return home at the end of an outing would be a big step.

 

SA