4-H Club Told to Leave God Out of the Equation

[GernBlansten]

It seems the 4H does not have a religious test for membership, nor is religion part of their aims or goals. So why would anyone expect that prayers be welcomed as a part of the program? Would we accept political candidates to be able to deliver campaign speechs at meetings too? Of course not, its not part of the program.

[acco40]

Heavy handed moderator here - I goofed. epalmer had a duplicate post and I tried to delete one just for clean-up and alas, both got deleted. Nothing offensive in his post. Sorry. :-(

[GernBlansten]

That would be more of a Ham Handed Moderator than a Heavy Handed Moderator.

[epalmer84]

It is not a duplicate on my part, and I'm not the only one. All my posts are doubled, but they only count once; it is a bit aggravating. None of the admins have figured it out.

 

Ed

[Trevorum]

Ed, we have long since just accepted it as part of your persona. It's different but not bothersome. Sorta like a good friend who has a stutter.

[evmori]

Was someone discriminated against? There is nothing in the article about someone being discriminated against.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Was someone saying that someone was discriminated against? There's nothing in this thread saying that someone was discriminated against.

[Beavah]

I wish the system would discriminate against one of the epalmers, eh?

 

I always figured they were like-minded twins.

 

B

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, thanks, Calico. That seems to be about what I was able to discern. I'm not really familiar with 4-H, though I've known a bunch of good folks involved with it.

 

So it's about what I said, eh? Because da programs may be run by private entities, there's not necessarily an establishment clause issue as Merlyn suggests. Only an internal policy one, which can probably only be enforced by the agency choosin' not to grant a charter, rather than by private cause of action against the government.

 

It's also hard to tell whether the various land grant colleges administerin' the program can set local policy to allow clubs to be an open forum, which would permit prayer, eh? That might be particularly of interest to the 30 Native American colleges, where da presence of common ethnicity may value such a cultural expression. Seems like I recall 4-H bein' involved with some pow-wows that included Native American (religious) ritual, but I'm gettin' old and addled. I'm havin' a hard time these days rememberin' the name of my first pet dinosaur.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), which is home to National 4-H Headquarters and the

4-H Youth Development Program, prohibits discrimination in all its programs and activities on the basis of

race, color, national origin, gender, religion, age, disability, political beliefs, and marital or family status. As a

result, 4-H programs must have secular purposes focused on education and must not advance

religion. Promoting religion, or explicitly or implicitly requiring religion or practices that specifically support

one denomination, such as Christianity, as a condition for participation in 4-H club meetings or activities not

only has religious purpose, it has the obvious effect of promoting one religion over others and can create a

barrier for participation among other groups. If 4-H activities and programs included prescribed religious

prayers, scriptures, or religious components to club bylaws, activities, or names, it would inject impermissible

sectarian overtones. Such violations could create the impression that 4-H is not open to participation by all.

 

 

 

[evmori]

You forgot

 

4-H participation in religious activities does not violate the separation of Church and State when: 1) The

purpose of participating is secular; 2) the primary effect of participating will not be to advance religion; and

3) the participation will not excessively entangle the affairs of the government with the affairs of the church.

If the scheduling of religious prayers, for example, reflects a secular purpose of setting a tone of solemnity

prior to a meeting or meal, and the prayers are nondenominational or various prayers reflecting a variety of

religious traditions are utilized, then this would be acceptable. 4-H programs may also engage in activities

that neither advance nor inhibit religion, allowing moments of silence, for example.

 

Can 4-H Clubs include specific and overt references to a specific religious tradition within their club or

program names?

No, 4-H club names that promote specific religious perspectives or icons promote the ideals of religious life

and are not secular. Promoting such ideals in 4-H programs, clubs, or activities not only has religious

purpose, it promotes one religion over others, and it creates the impression that 4-H is not open to all

regardless of their religious standing.

 

Can 4-H club members and 4-H volunteers hold prescribed religious prayers and Bible readings?

4-H club members and volunteers could use a neutral or nondenominational prayer or reflection to create

an environment of solemnity, or to gather a group for a shared meal, but these should not be specific to one

denomination or they should vary to reflect a number of traditions.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)