4-H Club Told to Leave God Out of the Equation

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yep, Focus on the Family blames the atheist parent for insisting that 4-H, a youth program from the US Department of Agriculture, actually follow the constitution and not hold prayers and bible readings:

http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000006190.cfm

[Gold Winger]

It's always the atheists who complain. If had been a Jew, Hindu, or Pagan of some sort they would have either kept their mouth shut or asked if their prayers could be used from time to time.

 

Prayer, the horrors of it all. The schools are crap. Girls are mothers three times over by ager 17. Kids kill each other for sneakers. The world is going to hell in a hand basket but we need to stamp out that dangerous public prayer. Ooooooo .. .. just makes me shiver.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So Gold Winger, you guy have a problem with a national youth organization telling one of its units to conform to national standards? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[SSScout]

Leader asks during planning for an annual 4H dinner, "would anyone mind if I say a grace before the meal?" No one objects, grace is said, meal is eaten.

Membership includes at least five known faith persuasions, including

"undecided".

[packsaddle]

Gold Winger, it would take some searching but at least twice in the past, I have recounted a Jewish family in our area who objected and were subsequently ostracised by school, sports, job, etc. They eventually moved. Your blanket statement on behalf of all those other groups might be a bit overstated.

[evmori]

The blanket statement might be overstated, pack, but the rest of GW's post is on the money.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

SSS, giving thanks before a meal is always a good idea. I wouldn't object either, if someone asked.

 

I get rather weary though when such invocations always give thanks to Ganesha. I mean, not everyone recognizes Ganesha as God, right? It's always Ganesha this and Ganesha that. As a religious minority, I much prefer a non-sectarian grace which allows each person to privately name their own favorite deity.

[Venividi]

Crappy schools, teenage pregnancy, and shooting for sneakers are linked to insufficient quantity of public prayers? Are there no private prayers being offered by anyone to address the world going to hell in a handbasket? If not, why not? If there are, how would public prayers be more effective in addressing such problems?

 

I am puzzled at how prayers/bible readings at a 4-H club will prevent problems GW mentions. I think they are unrelated.

[Gold Winger]

No, Venivedi, prayer in school won't solve those problem. My point is that there are more important things to worry about.

 

 

[Venividi]

GW,

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't read it that way. My mistake.

 

Here in Illinois, our state legislatures recently passed a bill making a moment of silence mandatory in all public schools. Their time could have been much better spent on state budget issues.

[packsaddle]

Venividi, from my vantage in academia I appreciate what you say. As I understand it, the most feasible solution is that those problems won't be solved until every student is armed with autoloading weapons. Ahem, grade inflation might get worse.

[hops_scout]

Venividi, I call Illinois home as well and both my parents teach in a public school. I know there were many teachers not happy about this. Wasn't it mandated to not take place while that law is decided in court? I'm thinking somebody up in the Chicago area challenged its legality...

 

Also, Illinois just passed a smoking ban. Any public building and within 15 feet of all doors, windows, and vents.

 

Definitely some better things those lawmakers could be doing, but the whole state government has issues..

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm actually not sure about the legal status of 4-H, eh?

 

There are elements of its program that are run out of the Cooperative Extension Service of the USDA. But then the National 4-H Council is a private entity, and they seem to be the major generator of educational resources (very similar to the BSA). The state-level programs are run through the land grant universities, which are both public and private, and at this level each land grant university seems to be the policy making body. Therefore, some 4-H programs seem to be clearly under private, not public, administration. And the clubs themselves seem to have both public and private sponsors. Funding as well seems to be a mix of private and public funding. In the present fiscal environment, my guess is that most to all of the funding at the club level is private.

 

Anybody seen the 4-H Clarity Campaign materials that describe how the various programs and separately incorporated entities are divided in 4-H? It's a bit of a murky mess, eh?

 

Anyway, I would humbly suggest that treating all of 4-H as though they're a governmental program subject to establishment clause restrictions is probably not accurate, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I wouldn't.

http://www.national4-hheadquarters.gov/library/fs-certification_4-H_groups_v9-07.pdf

The fine print (and it really is the fine print)

The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) prohibits discrimination in all its programs and activities on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, religion, age, disability, political beliefs, sexual orientation, and marital or family status. (Not all prohibited bases

apply to all programs.) Persons with disabilities who require alternative means for communication of program information (Braille, large print, audiotape, etc.) should contact USDAs TARGET Center at (202) 720-2600 (voice and TDD). To file a complaint of

discrimination, write USDA, Director, Office of Civil Rights, Room 326-W , Whitten Building. 14th and Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC 20250-9410 or call (202) 720-5964 (voice or TDD). USDA is an equal opportunity provider and employer.

 

I'm willing to be religion applies to all programs.

Also this part:

 

1. All included subsidiary groups must be formally authorized groups within your state

and under the control of Cooperative Extension. All included subsidiary groups must

have names that:

...

Are not overtly religious or represent the beliefs of one denomination over another;

 

Do not imply that membership is limited or exclusive;

 

and Are not offensive or generally seen as demeaning to any group protected byequal opportunity regulations(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[CalicoPenn]

The legal status of 4-H is that it is a program of the US Department of Agriculture under the Cooperative Extension Service. It came about with the passage of the Smith-Lever act which created the Cooperative Extension Service and included youth agricultural groups in its mandate. That became the basis of what is now known as 4-H. 4-H and it's symbols are trademarked to and under the protection of the US Secretary of Agriculture.

 

The National 4-H Council is a private, non-profit organization whose mission is to support 4-H. It doesn't supplant it, it doesn't make 4-H policy - it supports 4-H. State land grant universities, and state extension agencies received federal funds from the USDA to assist with presenting the 4-H program. In a lot of ways, 4-H is run like the BSA. National BSA grants charters to Councils to run the business affairs of the BSA in many parts of the country, and grants charters to organizations to offer the BSA program to youth - and these Charter holders are bound by their charter to follow the rules as set down by National BSA. While the USDA may not directly run any local 4-H programs, they are granting others the ability to do so - and those folks must follow the rules as set by the USDA.

 

4-H does not have a religious component, and, because it is a US Government program, cannot have a religious component.

 

As for the Illinois Smoking ban - I'm all for it. Now I'll be able to actually taste my food when I go to a restaurant and not some inconsiderate slobs cigarette.

 

Calico