evmori Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I beg to differ pack. Chartering a BSA unit does not promote any religion what so ever! If it does, then giving students Christmas day off promotes religion, too. And giving students Martin Luther King day off, promotes black people! Totally absurd. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eolesen Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I'd really like to see how supporting a group which requires a profession of faith constitutes "excessive entanglement" on the part of any government... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutmomma Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 If, as some claim, a cross, Star of David, or even a Budhist Wheel somehow harms them or their children because they "may" respresent teachings they choose not to listen to, then they are not doing a very good job at supporting what they do believe, or want their children to understand. The power of a symbol is extremely compelling to those for whom it has meaning, whether positive or negative. The cross, the Star of David, and the Muslim crescent moon and star are just such symbols. Skeptic, I must be missing something -- I don't understand how you can seriously claim that those who feel harmed by the display of such symbols simply aren't doing a good job of supporting their own beliefs. Not when I read yet another story about the growing religious divisions not only in our country but around the world... Why not ignore it on a personal level, and use it as a teaching example for their children's understanding of their principles, beliefs, or spiritual challenges? Somehow I don't see this prevailing as an argument in one of those periodic controversies that erupt over the display of, say, the Confederate flag... How is the power of a religious symbol as potent as the cross, Star of David, or crescent moon and star any different? I'm just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted January 3, 2008 Author Share Posted January 3, 2008 scoutmomma; Maybe I just see things too simplistically. To me, if my core values and personal belief system is secure, and I want the same for my kids, then I work really hard to give them that within themselves. Just seeing these things should not have any effect then, other than perhaps annoying me, if I have done a good job. But, as I said before, perhaps I am giving them more credit than is due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 You'll notice a lack of lawsuits when everyone has the same access to public forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I do not see the issue as much that ideas are threatening, as much as the source of the funds to present the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 skeptic asked, "...how is the simple exposure of someone to the mention of God... hurtful to you?" A question best asked of separatists such as Henry Barrowe or John Greenwood. A lot of people have sacrificed on the trail to liberty and freedom. Going off trail starts with tiny steps. Merilyn said, "I've already explained how the second clause of this is false, at least for me." It takes a person with faith in his beliefs to say that.(This message has been edited by MarkS) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
local1400 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I have Merlyn on my ignore list. If everyone else ignored Merlyn, maybe he would just go away and we get discuss something useful around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 The presence of one forum member hardly prevents useful discussion. There are 23 forums here in a broad variety of subject categories. Start a new topic about whatever tickles your fancy and away we go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Why are "ideas" so threatening to some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScout Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Because people like you are destroying the country we love! This isn't the same country it was 50 years ago. Pat Buchanan said it best I think when he said, "Millions have begun to feel like strangers in their own land. They recoil from a popular culture that is saturated with raw sex and trumpets hedonistic values. They see old holidays disappear and old heros degraded. They see the art and artifacts of a glorious pastremoved from museums and replaced by the depressing, the ugly, the abstract,and the anti-American. They watch as the books the cherished disappear from the schools they attended, to be replaced by titles and authors they never heard of. The moral code that they were raised to live by has been overthrown. The culture they grew up with is dying inside the country they grew up in." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Yah, I've traveled widely, eh? Some with international Scouting, some for other reasons. Been to lots of places where the symbols weren't my own. Stars of David, Crescents, Buddhas, Christian faiths not my own, flags without stars and stripes. Can't say that I've found any to be intimidating or a threat. Been perfectly happy traveling there, talkin' with different folk. Would be fine living there. I currently live in an area where mine is not the majority denomination, in Scoutin' or otherwise. Doesn't bother me in the least. Takin' someone else's symbols as a threat is a personal choice, eh? Doesn't say much about them. Says a lot about you. Now the behavior of others is a different matter, eh? Folks can become too aggressive about things, or impinge on my space. If yeh spray paint your symbol on my church, that becomes an issue. If yeh try to block my parade or remove all mention of my belief from public life, that's an issue. These also say a lot about the person doin' them. Somewhere between "insecure" and "real jerk." We teach all this as part of "A Scout is Reverent", eh? Maybe we do need to open Scoutin' up to atheists and such, so that they can learn such important lessons of courtesy and citizenship that they don't seem to be gettin' elsewhere. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venividi Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Because people like you are destroying the country we love! Our country is great because of the diversity of opinions, not in spite of it. It builds, not destroys. Religions are stronger because they have to communicate their worth. Contrast with much of Europe, where there are religions supported by the state, yet low church attendance and low percentage of people identifying themselves as religous. While I do not like Merlyn's style, which I consider abrasive, I can say the same for several others as well. So despite the abrasiveness, I think it beneficial to have a differing viewpoint offered here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I'd like to point out that this is my country too, and I have the same rights to free speech and religious expression as anyone else. It is not dependent on others' approval of my views. All this complaining is over a once-grossly-tilted playing field becoming more level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Well, no its not the same country of 50 years ago, its been quite awhile since I have heard a polock, mic, dago, wop or spic joke. Its been quite awhile since I saw a lunch counter with a "whites only" sign posted on it all quite popular 40-50 years ago. If the popular culture is degraded, why is that so? If we blame Hollywood for too violent or sexual movies, again why is that? Does Hollywood ever do anything that wont make a buck? Hollywood makes movies that will generate revenue. Local threatre owners can elect not to show movies that conflict with their own personal values. The question is, will they survive? Why is Paris Hilton such a celebrity? Because we the American Public make her one. Once we hit Paris overload, she will fade from view. Why is Britiny Spears in the public eye? Well, because her name sells. If we were the country we pretend to be, then none of this would happen. Capitalism fuels our economy, if there isnt a market for something, it goes away. Whether this is good or bad is up to the population to decide. If you want a community like 50 years ago, what are you willing to do about it? You have to get all the parents in the area interested in their kids education. You have to stand 100% behind the teachers regardless of what they do and respect them and have your child respect them. You respect the local law enforement officers and have your children respect them as well. Your chilren have to know if they are caught by the police, anything they do to them will pale by comparison to what you will do, as opposed to hiring a lawyer to "get them out of this". Your children have to see you and the other adults in the community do what is best for the commmunity and sacrifice personal gain and see this on a consistent basis. Your children need to see political leaders who do what is right, not what is expedient and if they don't, they are no longer in office. We need carpenters, plumbers and other tradesmen who take pride in their work and don't pad bills and provide shoddy craftmanship. We need professionals whose main goal is to provide competent service at a fair price, whether its Legal, Medical, or whatever. If an "Adult" book store opens, your children need to see it close in a month due to lack of cutomers, not add space after 6 months. If a "Gentlemans Club" opens, it closes both due to lack of cutomers and a lack of applications for "performing artistes" If you accomplish this, and have a model community, then having a few atheists move in wont destroy what you built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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