LDS, Christians, and Politics

[packsaddle]

I'd love to see some Pentecostals among the candidates. I might even go to a political rally if they had one. Can you imagine how much fun that would be? Dancing, singing, dodging snakes?

And as long as we're mentioning Dwight D and John F, don't forget...when it came to adultery, they did the real deal.

[Gold Winger]

" We don't need it filtered and interpreted by prophets, Popes, Bishops, and self-proclaimed Reverends. I think there's a lot of sense in that."

 

Based on that idea, everyone should ignore the writings of Paul, not to mention big chunks of the old testament. Wait, I bet those are okay because they were written long, long time ago and no one has been able to hear from God for the past 2,000 years.

 

As for who is a Christian, let's look at the dictionary definition

 

Christian (krschen) adjective

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

 

Doesn't say anything about the teachings of Paul. And for all you know, his father's house is on Znerflot.

 

Core beliefs? Very few of those actually come from the words attributed to Christ. Much of those can be attributed to a tent maker with heat stroke.

 

Humpty Dumpty was right, words only mean what we want them to mean. A classic example are the illiterate newscasters who use "begs the question" incorrectly as in, "His extravagent vacation begs the question, 'where did the money come from?'" Or the journalists who think that "penultimate" means "best of." Their "authorotative" misuse of words and phrases changes the meaning leaving those of us who can read beyond a sixth grade level of shake our heads in dismay.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

scoutldr

 

Your last post, of course, begs the question how DO you steam a shrimp?

 

Make fun of his religion

 

something we do quite well apparently

[le Voyageur]

I'm getting in late on this one...but, to answer the orginal question...Are Mormons Christians? My answer, based on 30 years as a member before being excommunicated by a Love Court, is a big no.

 

1. The Mormon god is not the God of Genesis who was in the beginning, but instead was a man that ascended to godhood, and resides on a planet called Kolob, or a planet near a star called Kolob with his many wives and servants.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

 

2. The Adam-God doctrine revealed by Joseph Smith (declared a false teaching by Church President Gordon B.Hinckley thus indirectly labeling both Smith and Young as false prophets)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_theory

 

3. The concept of 4 kingdoms in the after life. These are, Outer Darkness, the Telestial Kingdom, the Terrestial Kingdom, and the highest the Celestial Kingdom. To enter into the Celestial kingdom, a male priesthood holders needs permission from Joseph Smith to enter...

 

....that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are....

 

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/jofdvol7p282_291smithholdskeystoheaven.html

 

Women, though baptized in the name of Christ, are allowed only into the Celestial kingdom by permission of their husbands. If a husband is displeased with his wife in this life, he's free to call out for another to take her place in the next...

 

5. Blood Atonement

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement

 

6. Gordon B.Hinckley's own words....

 

http://www.watchman.org/lds/gbhjesus.htm

[Beavah]

Yah, GW, yeh know...

 

Tryin' to dismiss Paul because yeh think he was a "tent maker" doesn't really have any traction, eh? Jesus was a carpenter. Peter and John were fishermen. Matthew was a tax collector.

 

If yeh understood anything at all about the world, you'd understand that there is honor in doing labor with your hands, and folks with a craft or a skill are to be respected. They, more than the high and haughty who sneer at such "menial" things, make the world go 'round.

 

Which is why it ain't surprising that God, when He has His way, chooses shepherds to be Kings, tent makers to be evangelists, carpenters to be father to his Son.

 

If yeh want to really know what a tree is, you don't look in a dictionary, eh? Yeh go out and you look at trees. If yeh want to know what a Christian is, yeh sit and yeh listen to Christians... moms and dads and carpenters and tentmakers.

 

Or yeh remain boisterously ignorant. Your call, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[le Voyageur]

 

 

One more...a You Tube clip

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

[packsaddle]

OK, le Voyageur, I'm leaning in your direction on the question of whether Mormons are Christians or not. If your assertions are correct, they're definitely NOT. Space aliens, maybe. Christians, probably not. But now we're getting close to that other thread on ET-LNT although there is an obvious connection. In this case the extraterrestrials most definitely left a trace.

But I have to admit that all that stuff about male dominance and eternal sex sounds great although I never would have heard anything like that as a Presbyterian. Well...maybe that male dominance thing. Oops, no, that's Southern Baptist, my bad.

If anyone else takes a trip on the UTube, you might want to follow up with some of the other stuff on the author's site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

especially the comments. Not exactly reinforcement of the idea that religion is a unifying force for humanity.

In anticipation of a question from Brent, I have to say that I don't consider Joseph Smith to be just a myth. As a matter of fact I'm willing to work on the assumption that he actually existed and said some of the things Mormons claim. As for the gold plates, well, no way to prove a negative. But that goes for almost anything for which the evidence is only some words on paper.

[Trevorum]

"...the extraterrestrials most definitely left a trace. "

 

The Golden Plates? Not artifacts; I can't pick 'em up or look at 'em under a lens.

[eolesen]

The existance of Joseph Smith (and Christ for that matter) are a matter of historical record beyond the various church's documents.

 

The murder of Joseph Smith, and his being run out of Ohio and Missouri are detailed in newspapers of the time. What isn't historical fact is the gold plates and his revelations.

 

Likewise, the crucifixion of Christ is detailed as fact in Roman historical records.

 

 

Again, as I said a page or two ago, there's a lot more to the Mormon doctrines and convenants than people bother to read. Go read them for yourselves and watch the PBS documentary. It's pretty enlightening.

 

I used to be in the camp that Mormons were just another flavor of Christianity, and bought into the "they must be decent people because they're centered on family values and nice to deal with" image. But peel back the onion a bit, and there's some unsettling concepts at work.

 

I'm not sure if I'm more comfortable with the Koran or the Book of Mormon...

[packsaddle]

Trev, I hope you knew that was tongue-in-cheek.

Eolesen, I'm slowly working my way through all this stuff and it's amazing. And I thought Star Wars was fantastic...and THIS is the controlling influence over BSA today? Amazing.

[Trevorum]

ditto

[Gold Winger]

Okay Beaver, so he worked for a living. So what? It doesn't change the fact that he's a self proclaimed whatever you want to call him. You won't give credence to farmer who claims an angel visited him but you take the word of a tent maker who claims that God talked to him. I take both claims with a big grain of salt as I do the story of the burning bush. I also take the Mormon prophet's claims that God speaks to him with an equally big grain of salt.

 

BTW, Kolob is very close to Znerflot.

[captainron14]

Why is it that there are so many people (a lot of them ex-mormons)so determined to tear down the Mormon church?

You do not see the Luthuran Church producing videos and preaching against the Quaker Church.

 

It seems to me that the Catholic Church is the only other church that gets as much flack as the mormon church. I hear it all the time from my neighbor (a Baptist) about their idol worshop, etc.

 

Another common thread is with the Anti-mormon books and movies is that they are by former members who have been kicked out of the mormon church and are bitter and want revenge (once upstanding leaders do something and get caught, adultry, preaching agaisnst the church, etc). The Catholic church does this too I think. They (the excommunicated catholics) do the same thing it seems too.

 

Most of those who say they know all about the Mormon Church, really know nothing at all, just what someone made up, or read in a bad comic book (BadenP's post is a great example).

 

le Voyageur, you say you were LDS for 30 years before being excommunicated? Do you fall into that catagory, or the previous ones? If you say that you were once LDS you can't possibly agree with him (BadenP)?

 

So back to my orginal question from my earlier post: Which Church is next on the block? No mater what denomination you can think of, there will be something(s) that can be torn down, belittled and "Proven wrong/false or what ever. Come on now, lets keep this fair.

Packsaddle, who's next? Who's religion does this list of Scouters go after next?

 

[Trevorum]

Anyone is welcome to take a poke at UU. Go ahead, it's easy!

[scoutldr]

I don't think it's a matter of tearing down each others' religions (I prefer to say "denominations"). I agree, captainiron, there are flaws in all of them, and every religious person I know treats his religion like a cafeteria menu...support the things you like and ignore the things you don't like or are too hard. I know a Jew who observes every holy day, yet will eat 5 pounds of shrimp in one sitting...his excuse "what the rabbi doesn't see won't hurt him". I have Catholic friends who use birth control and commit adultery. I once worked for a born-again Southern Baptist who was a deacon in the church...but hated blacks with a passion (used the N-word at every opportunity). I could go on and on...It's not up to me to judge them...God will do that and one day we will all find out what the "one true religion" is...I suspect it won't be any of them and God is up there laughing his butt off at us fools and the money we are pouring into the churches' coffers.

 

What we are doing (at least me) here is to try to understand the LDS doctrine, especially since we may be choosing one to lead our country. I think that's worthy of discourse. There used to be some Mormon posters here, and with all the LDS scouters out there, surely someone could chime in and give us the straight poop. Then we can make our own decisions on election day.