LDS, Christians, and Politics

[packsaddle]

I remembered asking a question about how LDS members viewed themselves a while back and given the recent Romney speech, I was curious to see if opinions had changed any.

Especially considering Krauthammer's op-ed, critical of Huckabee's use of religion to garner votes (sorry, can't find a link...may be too early yet).

 

Anyway, the response in the parent thread was a little equivocal regarding how LDS members view themselves. How much of an issue is this really, for the rest of us? Do Christians think that LDS members are Christian? Why? Why not?

[John-in-KC]

I'll go first.

 

1) Archeology. I can find historically ancient writings of both OT and NT works. I can find works which are not in the Scriptural canon, based on historic decisions of folks carefully praying for the will of the HS. Where are Joseph Smith's golden plates?

 

2) Scripture interprets Scripture. What I've read of Book of Mormon does not square with Jesus being one manifestation of God (in other words, God in the flesh). I do not find anything in OT/NT which will, upon my death, give me the power, dominion, and authority of God. I will be in Heaven, with God, worshipping Him.

 

3) This is really critical: EVERY ORGANIZATIONAL CHURCH ON EARTH HAS SOME FORM OF ERROR. You can see this just in the sheer number of organizations of the church.

 

4) Given 3, I have to remember that Christ tells me to take the log out of my eye before I can point out the splinter in someone elses' eye. I have enough faults of my own which He is working through me to change, thank you. I will simply pray He shows all of us our error, whatever it be, that we might repent and return to him.

 

5) So, where do I assess the LDS? It's an earthly organizational church which has human error introduced in it. Gee... just like the Roman Catholic church, the Episcopal church, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of the USA, ad infinitum.

 

6) God is the Judge, not I. My task as a single Christian is to proclaim Christ and His salvation through His life, death, and resurrection, by the power and ability of the Holy Spirit. His task is to judge.

 

7) "Render unto Ceasar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's." Do I seek out His will for elected leaders of my Nation? Yes, emphatically. Come what may, I will vote. That said, there are other reasons than faith why Mr Romney is not high on my list of candidates. I will vote, for if I don't vote, I believe I do not have the right to complain about the decisions made!

[Trevorum]

 

But, John - you don't address pack's question: are Mormons Christian or not?

 

pack - isn't that kinda like asking if Christianity is Jewish? (flop, flop )

[GernBlansten]

This latest episode with Romney has had the good side effect of allowing us to review what JFK had said in his famous speech on religion and politics. JFK hit it right on the head. A candidates religion should be only important to himself. That there should be no religious test for candidacy. That's not what is happening today.

 

We now have candidates who claim that they are defined only by their religion. That opens the door to for scrutiny of those beliefs. Americans want to know how a candidate makes decisions and what influences and how strong those influences will act on him/her. For example, Romney says he will not take direction from the Mormon Church. However, doesn't Mormon faith require allegiance to the prophet? If he doesn't, is that an indicator of the strength of his religious convictions? Those questions must be answered before I consider my vote for him.

[packsaddle]

Found it, I wasn't looking in the right place:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/06/AR2007120601966.html

 

Trevorum, you can retract your pectorals. I am interested in hearing the different views on this. Krauthammer raises some good questions and thoughts and I think it is always good to be introspective on these things.

I did hesitate before asking the question (kind of circular, wasn't it?) but I couldn't think of a better way to ask.

Gern makes a good point and it is in line with Krauthammer's opinion. But I am interested in seeing if this insertion of faith into the political process works to unite or to divide...the people. Therefore the question I asked...it will be interesting to read the different views and then watch the eventual outcome.

[Gold Winger]

Mormons are Christians. The name of their church is The Church of Jesus Christ etc.

 

As for the whole concept of holy scripture, it was written by people to achieve their own goals or maybe it was God whispering in the ears of men.

 

Gold Plates? Where are the rocks that Moses brought down from the mountain? Where is the cross?

 

Why are the scribblings and rantings of a tent maker any more valid than the scribblings and rantings of anyone else?

 

Why shouldn't a politician use religion to garner votes? I'm a bit young to remember it, but I understand that JFK played the Catholic card quite well. Black politicians play the black card. You play the cards in your hand. That's politics.

 

I view organized religion with the same jaundiced eye that I use to look at BSA. For the people at the bottom of the heap it means one thing, for the people at the top it means power and money and more money means more power.

[GernBlansten]

Goldwinger, you are not too young to google the JFK speech and listen to it. It is one of his many great speeches.

JFK faced the same skeptism that Romney faces about his religion. Here's a link to JFK's speech.

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/40/story_4080_1.html

 

"I believe in a President whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation or imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to holding that office. "

 

[Gold Winger]

That's one of the great things about politics. You can say one thing whilst your supporters are saying another.

[Beavah]

Yah, we all tend to vote for people who are more like us, eh? Folks in California are more likely to vote for a Californian, Italians are more likely to give an Italian a closer look, businessmen tend to vote for successful businessmen, farmers tend to lean toward farmers, etc. etc.

 

Religion is a part of who people are, too. Mormons are more likely to consider a Mormon, etc. Especially in the early period of a campaign where folks are tryin' to gain traction, it seems pretty natural to "pitch" what a candidate has in common with the voters he's wooing. Just watch all these slick politicos pretend to "ordinary folk" eating in diners and such, eh?

 

Huckabee has an advantage in Iowa; there's more Baptists than there are Mormons. Iowans also have more in common with Arkansas than they have with Massachusetts. He's got the language of midwestern faithful farmers down better, eh? We see Romney tryin' to talk in Iowa about how his background is bigger than his time in Massachusetts, and we see Romney tryin' to talk about his background is bigger than LDS. Ain't no difference.

 

So if you're da "outsider" in an area, the governor of a New England industrial state campaignin' in the farm belt, you talk about your support for farmin'. If you're a rich white lady campaignin' in urban areas, you talk about your solidarity with the poor and your anti-racist credentials. And if you're a Mormon campaignin' in the Baptist bible belt, yeh talk about that too, eh?

 

Only natural.

 

Beavah

[GernBlansten]

That's the stark difference between the Romney and JFK speeches.

 

JFK: I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute

 

Romney: Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom.

[Gold Winger]

Interesting how JFK's comments on seperation of church and state include nothing about mangers in parks or prayers before a football games.

[BrentAllen]

Romney was quoting one of our Founding Fathers. JFK was not.

[Gold Winger]

Heaven's to Murgatroid! Quoting the founding fathers. Whatever was he thinkig?

 

Which founding father was quoted?

[GernBlansten]

Adams, the same one who signed into law the aliens and sedition act.

[BadenP]

Gee two things never to discuss together, politics and religion. Ok here goes, if you really read the teachings of the Mormon church you would see that Jesus was coceived by a sexual union of God and the Earth Mother, and that the years of Jesus growing up 12-30 he was supposedly in the New World preaching to the so called white Indians, which don't exsist anymore, since the red indians were considered spawn of Satan, as they also believe about blacks and asians . The gold tablets that their are no scriptural references to unlike the 10 Commandments or the writings of Paul are connoctions of the mind of a great con man named Joseph Smith. The LDS theology is so flawed and fictional that in no way can they claim to be Christian, and is little more than a sad cult who unsuccessfully declared war against the USA and lost it all in one battle in the 1870s.

 

How can anyone who has even a basic understanding of Scripture declare the LDS to be Christian? While it is true that many of the Christian denominations have their faults, since they are all products of imperfect humans, the LDS doesn't even come close to the basic Christian beliefs. Romney is just pandering to the uneducated and uninformed. The LDS has a lot of political punch, look what its done to the BSA, they have their own seperate program because of monetary reasons. I do not envy the Republicans this year, Romney, Guiliani, Huckabee talk about selecting the lesser evil. THE LDS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS!!!