Do you agree 100% with BSA policies?

[packsaddle]

Trevorum writes:

""... those squirmy little 6-10 year olds ..."

 

This vivid image proves to me that Lisabob has been there and knows what she's talking about."

 

And I can tell you I've been there too. Makes me squirm a little just thinking about it...but I really, REALLY enjoyed those days. I'll say it again, I really loved the cub scouts. Those little guys are the greatest, every last one of them. They can squirm all they want. And I'd go back to the cubs in a heartbeat if I was needed there.

 

More to the point, even the parents of the boys who join the troop are mostly unaware of this issue or simply don't want to hear about it. They definitely recoil when they become aware of the issue. The only parent I can remember who had a problem with gays or atheists in our unit also openly had a problem with blacks. He's history.

 

Beavah, the illogical part is the contradiction between, as you say, the fact that "...of course that's what the top brass realizes" and the fact that their stated policy (regardless of how poorly enforced) says they demand otherwise for membership. OK, maybe 'illogical' isn't strong enough.

 

Gonzo1, you sweet, sweet man! You must know that if two heterosexual males kiss in affection, BSA might do something about it but it won't be because of the gay issue.

As an adult male, I often kissed my father with great affection and he kissed me, even near the moment of his death in my arms. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn

Stay on topic, it works better. Forget about Copernicus and heliocentric cosmology, BSA doesn't allow homosexuals.

 

Packsadle,

I'm glad you call me sweet, as long as you don't think I am *sweet* (wink wink)

Nothing wrong with affection to dad, grandpa, etc. It's when Billy's dad is kissing Tommy's dad, THAT"S the problem. See PM

 

I'll concede this point to the group: There are gays and atheists in BSA. BUT, if they come out of the closet, we should throw them out of the house!!

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

LongHaul writes:

Merlyn, your post >>Just googling places, I still see plenty of people who didn't know and are genuinely surprised that the BSA doesn't allow gays or atheists, and the fact that their membership applications don't spell this out doesn't help either.

[FScouter]

I'm not sure what difference it makes whether a new member knows all about all the various and sundry rules, procedures, memberbship polices, and whatever when he turns in his app. If he runs afoul of anything he'll find out soon enough.

[Slouchhat]

And you consider that honest?

Finding something out the hard way after possibly spending mnoney on dues, uniforms and kit?

 

People, Ive given this a good thought and as far as I am concerned, an organisation that freely discriminates against people who dont fit their bill and throws out members of long meritious service who speak up against this practice is bigoted and does not deserve governmental benefits nor the support of the membership.

It is beyond my understanding that you dont rebel against this system and avoid conflict by comforting yourselves with well, I dont agree 100%, but most of it works for me.

This is the same as saying I dont give a flying poop.

Wheres your self-respect, people? Got any of it left? Then drop out today or band together and tell them up there that youre no longer willing to support their discriminatory dictatorship. After all, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

But then, maybe some people just don't care enough.

 

best regards,

Volker

[evmori]

I'm not sure what difference it makes whether a new member knows all about all the various and sundry rules, procedures, memberbship polices, and whatever when he turns in his app. If he runs afoul of anything he'll find out soon enough.

 

I would agree. How many of us join an organization & don't know all the rules & regs? I would bet all of us would raise our hand. How do we find out what these rules & regs are? We ask or find out when we violate one. It's a learning process.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

I've heard that expressed as, "Ask forgiveness, not permission."

[BrentAllen]

Volker,

You are welcome to your opinion, but the BSA practices legal discrimination, protected under our US Constitution, which I support. Other than packsaddle, I don't know of any other Scouter in my area that supports changing the policy. Most of the Troops are chartered by churches, so the Chartered Organization Reps (the only members who have a vote at Council) are, for the most part, members of churches. And contrary to what you read here, these members are pretty conservative. Don't expect to see either of those policies changed any time soon.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Volker, what Brent fails to mention is that his own BSA unit was chartered by a public school for years, which is NOT legal, due to the BSA's discriminatory membership policies. The BSA didn't recharter thousands of BSA packs & troops chartered to public schools until they were threatened with lawsuits. And I think that's another good example of why it's important to spell out membership requirements, like the recent John Jay High School incident shows, where the school suddenly found out it was running a SafeRides program that didn't allow atheists.

[evmori]

Yup the BSA was threatened with lawsuits because someone thinks it's illegal for a public school to charter a BSA unit so they switched the chartering to the school's PTA or PTO. Big whoop!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BrentAllen]

Come on, Merlyn, be truthful now. You still cannot point to the court decision where it was decided that schools chartering units is illegal. Don't you think it is important to point out that the BSA just reached an agreement with the ACLU that they would not issue charters out of public schools? And that this agreement only happened a couple of years ago? And when it did, we complied by having our PTA charter the Pack, which just required the PTA President to sign off on the COR, instead of the school principal? Not a single other component of the Pack changed - membership, meeting locations or times - nothing, zilch, nada.

 

I think it speaks volumes that Merlyn has to result to this same old tired argument time after time. How many years have we heard this now? The true irony of this situation is nearly every single member of our Pack THINKS we are still chartered by the school! Nobody tells them that, but since nothing changed when we moved the charter, they think we are chartered by the school. Hey Merlyn - is that against the law?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Brent, I am being truthful; public schools can't practice religious discrimination. Chartering a BSA unit, where the chartering organization, in the BSA's own words, "owns and operates" it, means that the public school owns & operates a private club that excludes atheists. No, so far there hasn't been any public school willing to throw away money and try to say in court that, as a public school, they CAN exclude atheists, because public schools actually get real legal advice, such as the recent John Jay High School incident, and the lawyer tells the school it's a non-starter.

 

Now, to get back to why it's important for people to understand the BSA's membership requirements, back when you were chartered by a public school, did you ever tell any school representatives that atheists couldn't join your group?

[BrentAllen]

"Now, to get back to why it's important for people to understand the BSA's membership requirements, back when you were chartered by a public school, did you ever tell any school representatives that atheists couldn't join your group?"

 

Sure I did. When I told them we had to move the charter to the PTA, they asked why. When I explained the agreement with the ACLU, they thought it was absurd! What you see as the most important element of your argument (that the CO owns the unit), they see as a technicality. They don't see it as owning the unit - they just see it as giving the Pack permission to meet there and be a part of the school, just like the chess club or any other group. As I said, the members of the Pack think we are still chartered by the school. Enjoy your hollow victory.

 

Just an FYI - our school superintendent is a huge supporter of Scouting. He is even a member of our Council Executive Board - a position he sought out.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ah, so you didn't tell the school until you had to change it. All the years before then, you never informed any school officials that the school was practicing religious discrimination. Gotcha.

[BrentAllen]

What are you constantly accusing Ed of?

 

The school officials already knew BSA policy. That is why they thought it was absurd that we had to move the charter. The didn't agree that the school holding the charter equated to the school practicing discrimination. Again... they saw the Pack as a club, just like chess or Odyssey of the Mind or whatever, they didn't (and still don't) see the charter as representing ownership that resulted in school discrimination. Now, do you understand? Now, do you "gotcha?"