Just go join Spiral Scouts

[Beavah]

Yah, Slouchhat, you'll forgive me for thinkin' that the notion that Germany is "as diverse as America" is a bit laughable, eh?

 

Germany does have a lot of cultural legacy from the WW2 era. Part of that cultural legacy is a response to the shame of what was done to Jews, and gypsies, and homosexuals by those then in power, with the tacit and often active approval of da populace. That's part of your culture, I understand. "Never exclude unless there's incontrovertible reasons for exclusion".

 

America didn't live that, eh? It's not part of our culture in the same way. Our equivalent is the legacy of slavery and racism, but it doesn't have the same character.

 

In many ways our WW2 and Cold War legacy is "standing fast against those who would do evil." Not just attack us, but do evil to their own populace or their neighbors. That might mean we're too quick to intervene in things we don't fully understand, but it does mean that it was the U.S., not Europe, that went half way around the globe to intervene in former Yugoslavia. It's the U.S. fighting pirates off Somalia so as to free Korean citizens, etc. Even the genocide in Sudan has our populace wringin' our hands with itchy trigger fingers, though we know intervention there is not in our strategic interest.

 

That sense of "standin' fast against evil" has its basis in a Christian moral structure that's "absolute" in the sense that it justifies such intervention more than it validates "every government/person as being equally good". We're more religious and less cynical than yeh are in Europe.

 

Our political structure is also not parliamentary. Our politicians are free to vote their conscience on any issue, and if the ruling party loses the vote, no big deal. Next week you may have to forge a compromise with a different group. Parties mean less here as a result. We care more about individual politicians and their personal characteristics - are they honest? honorable? smart? Since they're free to vote as they see fit, person matters to us more than party and as much as platform.

 

How do yeh tell about a person? You tell by his/her choices. A choice to have sex with a subordinate and lie about it has nothin' to do with governance. But it says somethin' fundamental about his character, enough to merit impeachment from governance.

 

In da same way, a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle to most Americans reflects something fundamental about character. It's a choice to reject Judeo-Christian ethical principles - and to do it proudly and openly (as compared to a thief, who might do it secretly and be ashamed when caught).

 

Someone who openly rejects Judeo-Christian ethical principles we feel is not the sort of person who is the best example for children. While we might respect their ability in a free society to say or even do what they wish, it doesn't mean that we want those values passed along as "right" for our kids.

 

We would say the same about Nazis, eh? We allow them to march and say what they will, but we would not be comfortable havin' 'em teaching children. By contrast, you Germans do not even allow them to march or to speak, let alone teach! So it seems like you're a lot harsher than we are about groups your culture doesn't agree with, eh?

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Slouchhat]

Beavah,

you're right.

Americans are too quick about things they don't fully understand and I think we see a result of this in BSA.

 

Your sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. If you are a heterosexual, it wasn't your choice. It's not the homosexual's choice either. Many of them are fighting their homosexuality, many marry a woman, have children but still know they are not straight. Most of these marriages don't last anyway.

 

You are talking about a lifestyle. What do you mean? What exactly is a homosexual lifestyle? They have jobs, they need to eat, they need to drink. They need love. Just like you and me. Does it concern you if they love other men of the same sexual orientation?

Most of the time you don't see it, you wouldn't even know they are gay.

Do you feel more comfortable if they would hide their sexual orientation?

If you kiss your wife in public that's okay. What gives us the right to demand homosexuals hide their feelings or deny their needs?

 

No harm is being done by having homosexual scouts. Homosexuality is not a virus. What is supposedly going to happen if a troop has a homosexual scouter?

Do you really believe the kids would be turning gay? Do you think he's going to violate the boys? What exactly are you afraid of?

[Beavah]

Nah, Slouchhat, yeh didn't get it, and you continue to judge our culture based on your own culture's prejudices.

 

I meant just to be informative, not to start an argument, eh? To try to share a different perspective. But sure, I'll play from our perspective.

 

You deprive folks with certain viewpoints of free speech and assembly rights. We find that abominable. What are you afraid of? Do you think that their ideas are so much better than yours that they would overrun you if they were allowed to speak them freely? What does that say about the strength of your own ideas?

 

And then with genocide goin' on in your own back yard in da former Yugoslavia, you and the rest of Europe dithered and did nothing, and left it to us judgmental Americans to take care of.

 

To say nothin' of us providing your defense out of our pocket for 40+ years.

 

BSA Scouting is very successful over here. Seems like we provide nearly half of da funding for WOSM even though we have a much smaller fraction of Scouts. When is German Scouting going to step up, eh? Or is it perhaps that your choices have made yeh much smaller, or yeh don't place value on supportin' world organizations or your neighbor?

 

It's easy to judge da foibles of another culture from outside without recognizin' your own weakness. For us as well. But once yeh get inside da other culture, yeh realize things are more complicated, people are mostly good or at least well-intentioned, and some things aren't even foibles.

 

Best,

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad]

Hi Slochhat

 

>>Your sexual orientation is not a matter of choice.

[ptathor]

 

Actuallly I am an old scouter and an eagle scout. I have worked with spiral scouts for a little bit. I found them to be disorganized and micro managing. They seem to have a real problem with keeping the groups active. From being in BSa for 20 yrs I do not see the spiral scouts being able to compete.

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, ptathor. I'm curious though...how did you manage to find a 6+ year old thread like this to respond to? I am truly impressed.

[Sentinel947]

Welcome to the forums, ptathor. I'm curious though...how did you manage to find a 6+ year old thread like this to respond to? I am truly impressed.

I'm sure he used the search function. I'd never read this thread having joined only a year of two ago. I was in my 3rd year as a Scout when this thread was active. O_o

[Scouter99]

Welcome to the forums, ptathor. I'm curious though...how did you manage to find a 6+ year old thread like this to respond to? I am truly impressed.

This thread has apparently outlasted the Spiral Scouts since their website is locked-down with "unauthorized to view" messages even for the home page.