Just go join Spiral Scouts

[Lisabob]

I get a little chuckle out of this every time somebody proposes it as an alternative to the BSA. Not to disparage Spiral Scouts or anything, but how many of us have ever heard of this organization, outside of this forum? How many of us can say "yep, there's a Spiral Scouts group in or near my town." This gets tossed out as if it were a viable option the same as taking little Johnny off to the Join Scouting night at the local elementary school, but in reality, I don't think this is an apt comparison or serious option for most people. According to the Spiral Scouts International website, there are only about 65 active groups in the entire country, operating in less than half of the states. There appear to be more de-chartered and inactive groups as active ones.

 

And seriously, again not meaning to disparage anyone, but just because I happen to disagree with the BSA's stance on certain hot-button social issues does not mean I'd necessarily feel more at home in Hecate's Helpers or the Crystal Dragons Circle.

 

Personally I think the "just go join Spiral Scouts" rejoinder is a convenient dodge of the real issues, more often than not.

[evmori]

How many units do you think there were when the BSA started? Spiral Scouts is a newer organization that is still growing. Suggestion someone join them is a great way to help them grow!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[CA_Scouter]

.. or perhaps its an indication that despite the ruckus regarding the BSA policies, there really is very little demand for an organization of this type.

 

 

[frank10]

You have a point, but, there is also other options...

 

4H

Royal Rangers

Campfire

YMCA (Dang, now the song is in my head...Its fun to stay at the Y-M-C-A.)

FFA

 

And since most of the kids don't want to camp anyhow,

all the sport clubs

Band

 

Point is they don't have to hijack our program and then strip it of what is important to us until I feel out of place.

Their schools G&L support club

or even Chess Club.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Point is they don't have to hijack our program and then strip it of what is important to us until I feel out of place.

 

I think both sides can say this.

[GernBlansten]

America! Love it or leave it!

[onehouraweekmy]

Well, if you feel strongly enough about homosexuality and atheism, you should indeed be true to your principles and leave Scouts for one of these alternatives.

 

After all, when GSUSA went radical and became all cozy with radical Feminism, Lesbianism, and atheism, what did the traditional values folks do? Stay there and try to subvert the institution?

 

No, they went out and formed their very own scout-like group, American Heritage Scouts (I think that's the correct name), so they could exercize their right to have their children participate in a group that does not offend their values.

 

Go thou and do likewise. Will it be less convenient? Probably. But if your principles are strong enough, and you want to send a clear signal to your kids that you believe strongly in these ideas, then you really should switch, and let the kids know exactly why. Most kids respond very favorably to a principled stand.

 

It seems that would be a much more honest and straight foward position than the current one which seems to be: "Johnny, you know the BSA is a hateful group for excluding homosexuals and atheists. and even though we despise these core values of BSA, we're gonna stay and [pick one:] try to subvert the mission of the BSA by trash-talking their positions whenever we can; or we're gonna be quiet and just ignore the fact that we belong to a hate-mongering bigotted institution.

 

[evmori]

Who is the other side?

[Trevorum]

Now, my memory is not as good as it used to be, but I just do not recall anyone on these forums - or anyone else for that matter - ever refering to BSA as a "hateful group" or despising their "core values" or saying they were trying to "subvert the mission" of the BSA or "trash-talking their positions" or saying the BSA is a "hate-mongering bigotted institution".

 

On the other hand, I can see how some folks whose world view is black-and-white - "yer with us or yer agin us" - could jump to those conclusions.

[onehouraweekmy]

well, lots of folks have accused BSA of that, my comments were not restricted to just those on these boards, but as for those, how bout:

 

"I would actually prefer all of the BSA units that refuse to follow the BSA's discriminatory policies inform the BSA of that decision, but I'm sure they're all afraid of losing their charter, and it's easier to just lie to the BSA. I don't consider lying to the BSA under such circumstances to be very unethical, and I consider following the BSA's policies to be more unethical, so it's more a choice of doing what is less unethical." --Mervyn

 

(following BSA policy on homosexuality/atheism is "unethical")

 

"I find it hideously immoral that we're contributing to the prejudice. I find it shameful that we allow prejudice to contribute to the destruction of young people's lives." --tjhammer

 

Heck, that's just a couple of minutes using the search function.

 

The message? BSA's policy is immoral, unethical, life-destroying. OK, not "hateful" (at least that I could find a few minutes of search), but ummm, close enough?

 

 

[evmori]

Ya gotta consider the sources of those two ya posted there onehouraweekmy.

[Trevorum]

There certainly are people on these forums who do believe that certain elements (not all) of BSA policies are immoral, unethical and, yes, potentially life destroying.

 

(I take it you have never met the parents of a 15 year old boy who committed suicide because he was constantly told by his church, his friends, his community, and the BSA that he was abnormal, perverted, and not the "best kind of citizen".)

[Beavah]

Yah, I gotta agree with Lisabob here.

 

I'm part of a lot of organizations. I can't say that there's a single organization, even my church, where I really agree with 'em on everything. If joining an organization meant agreeing on everything then we'd all be pretty lonely, eh?

 

I think we all strike a balance where we give up some of what we care about in order to be part of an organization that does some good in other ways. And, as organizations, we also tolerate some diversity of approach and eccentricity in our membership.

 

I think most folks, even where they disagree with the BSA on some stuff (look at the folks in Chicago!), still are willing to support the movement for the good that it does.

 

And da Wiccans just aren't a big enough group to really support a strong specialty youth program.

 

Not to say that someone else couldn't eat our lunch. The Big Churches could create their own program in a hurry. If a state like California got into it in terms of providing experiential outdoors citizenship programs as a public school option, they'd cream us. A bunch of breakaway councils might be able to do it. Or a national association like the teachers unions or school boards partnered with someone like Outward Bound. The important features are funding, exposure, and they're not "one issue" folks. They can tap into demand for a coed middle school and high school outdoor leadership program with perhaps a bit less conservative bent, but it's not their only focus.

 

So far, all da SFA and Spiral Scouts and other folks have been one-issue amateurs. They don't even look particularly attractive to those who agree with 'em.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

Gern, thanks a whole lot. It's been a while since I heard that but a few years ago, on a football weekend, I caught one of the beer-soaked superannuated fanatics relieving himself on the door to my building. I may have said some regrettable things. But I nearly doubled over when his sphincter slammed shut and he nearly neutered himself with the zipper. He yelled at me, "Why don't you go to Russia!" I still get a chuckle when I think of it.

Never saw him again though.

 

But your old saying is a classic. I have rephrased it and I use it to needle the talk show types around here when they complain about something involving money or taxes, "That's the American Economic System, Love it or leave it."

And then I run...fast.

 

[GernBlansten]

Just for Packsaddle.

 

A little diddy by my favorite Texas governor wannabe...

 

"Well, a redneck nerd in a bowling shirt was a-guzzlin lone star beer

Talking religion and-uh politics for all the world to hear.

they oughta send you back to russia, boy, or new york city one

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)