Ed & Merlyn sidebar commentary

[Beavah]

 

Since OGE and F both want the other thread to stay clear for Ed and Merlyn to argue in peace, I figured it would also be fun to have a sidebar thread where the rest of us (but not Ed or Merlyn,) could comment on their discussion points in peace.

 

Rules are to only comment on their points, rather than creating a separate debate here between other people.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

No public school can legally charter a BSA unit that discriminates on the basis of religion, because public schools can't do that, even if the administration wants to discriminate. It isn't up to the school, since they cannot practice religious discrimination.

 

Yah, Merlyn likes this claim, but let's be clear here.

 

To my knowledge, a case like this has never been decided by a court that I'm aware of, nor by formal action of a regulatory agency with jurisdiction. Most of us, including da BSA, presume it to be likely, or at least recommend against such charters so as to avoid legal headaches for the sponsor.

 

But erickelly65 is correct, eh? This is properly the choice of the sponsoring public school, and not the BSA. Faulting the BSA for it is a bit odd. In fact, a public school board or state educational agency has every right if they so choose to charter a BSA program, and then to defend that position in court if challenged by someone with standing to challenge it. And courts sometimes weigh the benefits of such public-private partnerships against the relative risk of church-state entanglement - as in the case with allowing public school vouchers for religious schools.

 

So it's not completely clear what a ruling would be if challenged, but it is clear that it's the school's choice. To say anything else is to infringe on the rights of the People through their elected representatives. School boards can (and sometimes do) deliberately choose to be test cases. They also routinely make cost-benefit determinations about regulatory matters.

 

Their choice, not the BSA's. And the BSA should no more be faulted for it than any of the many other groups, agencies, and lobbies that offer services to or make requests of public bodies.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Beavah]

I've told you this before Ed, but I know you can't learn things. The ACLU *DID* sue to remove *BOTH* nativity scenes *AND* menorahs. The *COURTS* decided that menorahs were not religious symbols.

 

Here I think Merlyn is referring to County of Allegheny v. ACLU, where the ACLU did in fact take both a creche and a menorah on public property to court. The appeal went all the way to SCOTUS, so it's hard to argue that the ACLU didn't pursue it vigorously.

 

The menorah was allowed because it was part of a bigger display which included a Christmas tree.

 

There have been a whole mess of these silly holiday decorations cases, though, so it's quite possible Ed is referring to a different one.

 

B

 

[eolesen]

Is this the place I can say that Merlyn is acting a little childish with the name-calling?....

[Beavah]

I'd say yeh just did, eolesen!

 

But in keepin' with the spirit of the sidebar commentary, I'd suggest excerpting a few phrases as examples and then offering your expert commentary on how they detract from the substance of the argument.

 

Might be edumacational for everyone dat way!

 

B

 

[GernBlansten]

Merlyn is a better debater. Ed is more entertaining.

I like both of them and enjoy watching threads devolve into a bickering session between the two. Ed never disappoints me and frequently surprises me. I like surprises. Merlyn however, I can read like a book.

 

But if I had to have someone on my side of the argument, it would have to be Merlyn. He is consistent, logical, and mostly correct.

[local1400]

I think Ed and Merlyn are the same person with multiple personality disorder. And they/he don't/does'nt have another hobby.

[eolesen]

Nah, I'd already broken the rules on the other thread and pointed out what appeared to be ad hominum remarks, which Merlyn clarified to be intended as insults. That in turn got the thread (rightfully) closed down.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you that there's no real basis for saying a public school can't also charter a unit and still be in compliance with the spirit of the establishment clause. Many athiests take the approach that it means government free from religion, where as others like me take it to mean a government which is not controlled by any one religion.

 

We have charter schools here in AZ which sponsor Cub Scout packs. Obviously there are a lot of people who purposely steer clear of any potential conflict, and just say no to everyone rather than risk being the next target of an activist lawsuit.

 

This may be a silly question, but for the units I've been involved with, the CO provides nothing aside from a place to meet. There's no money changing hands. So, how are taxpayer funds being used illegally?

[BadenP]

I think that Ed and Merlyn should be given their own personal private, secure, thread permanently, open only to them, where they can pontificate their own drivel and ban them from the rest of the threads. Those guys don't know when to give it a rest.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

eolesen writes:

This may be a silly question, but for the units I've been involved with, the CO provides nothing aside from a place to meet. There's no money changing hands. So, how are taxpayer funds being used illegally?

 

Using that logic, a public school could have a whites-only club as long as no money was spent.

 

Religious discrimination is, itself, unlawful for a public school. It doesn't matter if the discrimination is "free".

[Beavah]

I knew Merlyn would be da first to break in on this thread!

 

B

 

[ASM915]

OH NO!!! He's here.

 

Local, That's a good one. I was beginning to think Merlyn was part parrot, and that Ed's hero might have been Hillary.

Beav, is there any way to trace the posts to see if they come from the same computer to see if Local's idea may be?

[Ohio_Scouter]

I enjoy the Ed and Merlyn show. It's my daily dose of Scouting entertainment. It reminds me of the old American radio comedy program, The Bickersons, with Don Ameche and Frances Langford, which I miss dearly.

[Lisabob]

I appreciate both Ed's and Merlyn's views as well, though I tend to think that Ed has a rather dogmatic approach (I'm right. You're wrong. That's just how it is.) and I too tire of Merlyn's "you can't learn" rejoinders.

 

One thing, though - it is nice that Ed ventures outside the politics area and offers his advice, thoughts, and critiques on practical (dare I say, "ACTUAL"?) matters of interest to the lives of day-to-day scouters in the trenches. And I appreciate that he generally leaves his political views out of those other areas. In that way, he reminds me of a lot of folks I've met through scouting who have strong political views one way or another, but generally don't air them out unless asked.

 

About charter schools as COs - had an interesting conversation with my DE about that a while back where he insisted that while public schools should not be COs, charters were ok. In fact I think we had a thread about it here, where it was pointed out that charters ARE public schools and consequently, this line of thinking doesn't fit very well with BSA's own guidelines on COs.

[Gonzo1]

I like the Ed and Merlyn show.

I think Merlyn is a lawyer and would probably run for office someday. He wouldn't get elected and then would blame Ed for it.

 

Here's an observaton: Ed is a better debater, Merlyn is a better repeater of "Ed, you can't learn" and then keeps beating that drum.

 

Here's another: I continually wonder WHY Merlyn hangs out here, he really doesn't have "standing". That is, he isn't a scout and has admitted to being a cub scout fraudulently, that is, his mother was a leader (an atheist) and that while a cub scout, Merlyn was an atheist. In the military, we call that fraudulent enlistment- punishable by a less than honorable discharge (not good) for entering under false pretenses.

 

Ed - Got get him.

 

OGE, please open the other thread, let them have it.

 

I'm glad I don't argue with Merlyn anymore, it's pointless, I think he's the one who can't learn.