Inappropriate Adult Knots

[BrentAllen]

DWS,

I think claiming you are an athiest and homosexual, which is what Jersey stated, is a lot different than "not being sure" or "avoiding acting on feelings."

 

pack,

No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. Every Scout should have religion. There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God.

 

Better not invite me to your funeral, if you are wearing your uniform. I always carry my trusty Swiss Army knife. :-)

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

BrentAllen wrote:

I think claiming you are an athiest and homosexual, which is what Jersey stated, is a lot different than "not being sure" or "avoiding acting on feelings."

 

One can be a homosexual without engaging in homosexual conduct, just as one can be a heterosexual and avoid engaging in that conduct as well. If one is a homosexual, and believes homosexual acts to be immoral, then one may keep oneself morally straight by avoiding such conduct.

 

As I said, Duty to God is a bit different, but absent a flat out declaration that one believes there is no god, I think there is an opportunity to discuss what a young person's duty is to the God he (or she) believes in, no matter what form that deity takes.

 

Regards,

DWS

 

[JerseyScout]

""...and I don't see a reason for them to be excluded ..."

 

Yeah, that whole "On my honor,... do my duty to God...and morally straight." thing is just a bunch of words, right? I mean, nobody takes it seriously, right? The most important thing is that those athiest and gay Scouts got the nice pretty award pinned on their uniform, so they can feel good about themselves.

 

But, if the award turns out to mean nothing, and is nothing more than a pretty medal, then I wonder why it would make them feel good about themselves? Kinda reminds me about a certain president and a certain prize, but at least he didn't have to lie to himself in order to receive it. "

 

Where do we go from there Brent? Should anyone who ever cheated on a spouce/girlfrield/boyfriend be excluded? What about divorcees? Kids who have gotten into fist fights? Kids who have told a lie? All of those people certainly aren't "morally straight", are they? Jesus Christ himself lost his temper and got violent in a Temple, I seriously doubt that even among a bunch of Boy Scouts that anyone is perfect. While I can see exluding certain types of adults (crimminals, maybe even homosexuals, there are good arguments in that direction), I see no reason to exclude any sort of BOY from the program if he doesn't present a danger to other boys or a severe disturbance to the program at large.

 

Seriously Brent, "but at least he didn't have to lie to himself in order to receive it?" Did my gay buddy who made Eagle somehow tarnish that Eagle Award because it turned out that he was attracted to men? Did he have to work less hard than the straight reciepients? Was his Eagle packet any different, his Eagle project any less demanding? Didn't he earn his merit badges one at a time like the rest of us? Did my friends that viewed themselves as non-religious somehow tarnish the Eagle Scout award because they didn't belong to an organized church/synogogue/temple/etc? Some of these people ran closer to the spirit and the letter of the Scout Oath and Law than I myself could ever hope to, should they have gotten the boot because they couldn't attach a label to their "reverency"? If other Scouts can insert "Allah" or "Yahweh" or "Buddah" or "the many, many Gods of the Hindu faith", would it matter if a Scout decided to use "to do my duty to my fellow man"? Maybe being around God-fearing people will allow an athiest Youth of the present to move toward religion in later years, I have seen it happen, other people here have too.

 

To me, a boy is a boy is a boy, we should be helping all of them as boys.(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

[BrentAllen]

Honor is probably the most difficult virtue to uphold because it requires that one first be honest with oneself. If you can overlook or live with your own dishonor, then it's a simple matter to think that the rest of the world can also.

[Troop24]

First I need to state I am not in favor of a special patch or knot to identify me or any other adult as a person that a scout should feel free to approach when they have something they need to talk about. If I am doing my job correctly the scout will already know that I can be approached and I will just have to "be prepared" to handle any subject matter that surfaces. That is not to say that I should be able to counsel him regarding all phases of human sexuality or even all religious issues he will be facing; but it does mean that I need to be able to answer the rudimentary questions and know where to direct him for the deeper answers he desires to more learned sources than me: ministers, counselors, and the like. I see that as my role as a mentor.

 

Now on to the reason I felt compelled to wade into this mire. BrentAllen said: "Honor is probably the most difficult virtue to uphold because it requires that one first be honest with oneself. If you can overlook or live with your own dishonor, then it's a simple matter to think that the rest of the world can also." On my honor. . . .I struggle to live up to the concept of honor on a daily basis along with the rest of the oath and the twelve points of the law. I do this for myself, my scout son, the scouts in my troop, and because I pledged to do so 30+ years ago when I received my Eagle. I struggle and I do not think I am a particularly sinful or bad person. I drink the occasional beer, tell the occasional off-color joke, get mad at the drivers around me, and things like that.

 

I simply cannot imagine dealing with a major question like a sexual identity that others will find deviant. I simply cannot understand why society deals the hatred and spite onto the poor soul that cannot change their desire. It is this time in their lives that people come to the true realization of who they are, sexually, politically, religiously, and any number of socially adaptive ways. Sexual orientation is not a choice as some believe, simply not, as a father I can attest to that from the experience of watching a child develop her identity. You cannot alter nature.

 

Society has come to the conclusion that in some cases it is okay to live a life of concealment and conceit, remaining in the closet and not allowing your true self to be revealed. That is a lie that everyone thinks is alright (A Scout is honest.) Or there is another concept of "Don't ask, don't tell", but that to is simply another lie. So Brent says to be honest with one's self. I guess that means the boy should leave scouting voluntarily then because the program does not want to support him. Because if he continues to live a lie he is living in dishonor.

 

Pretty sad conclusion from where I sit.

[maurergj]

I disapprove of wearing of any unauthorized knots. But, in regards to gay scouts, I'm under the impression that gay scouts are not prohibited. Neither are gay parents. What IS prohibited is registered scout LEADERS being homosexual and that for very good reason. The Scout Camp in Chesapeake, VA had to be shut down for three years because of a gay ranger sexually harassing older scouts.

 

There is a requirement for the scouts to be morally straight and do their best for God and country. I've had two scouts who thought they might be athiests. My guidance to them was that I would never kick them out, but they were honor bound to follow the oath and law, which satisfied them. My advice to any scout is that if they are following the oath and law, they're fulfilling the expectations of Scouting.

[sherminator505]

"The Scout Camp in Chesapeake, VA had to be shut down for three years because of a gay ranger sexually harassing older scouts."

 

Funny. I was just reading a story on another thread about a female Scouter who was caught doing the same thing. Was she gay?

[DanKroh]

Sherminator asked "Funny. I was just reading a story on another thread about a female Scouter who was caught doing the same thing. Was she gay?"

 

No, but evidently using the logic of folks like maurergj, her behavior is a good enough reason to exclude all heterosexual female scout leaders. When will we be going back to that model, exactly? After all, that worked out so well for the BSA in the '80s, right?

 

Here's just a small part of my problem with the whole, "we'll let in gay scouts but not gay leaders". What do you do when that young man turns 18 and wants to stay on with his troop as an ASM, and being gay is the only criteria under which you would deny him a leadership position? What exactly about his character changed from the day before, when he was 18 years old, that he is now not fit to be a member of the BSA as a legal adult?

 

And what does it say to the child of gay parents (yes, we do have such things here in MA, and the parents are even married, so you can't use that excuse, either) that *he* can be a member of the BSA, but neither of his fathers/mothers can be, just because they are gay? Think about that even more if the young man in question is himself gay (at the risk of invoking the whole gay parents = gay kids nonsense).

 

Personally, I find the whole gay youth/gay adult artificial distinction even more problematic than excluding all homosexuals.

[OldGreyEagle]

OK, I have blinders on, but here goes anyway

 

I do not want a Homosexual Scout in the troop I serve, nor do I want a Heterosexual Scout in the Troop I serve (unless he is married of course).

 

I do not view the scouts I serve as sexual beings, yes, I know some of them are, but I think I would react the same way if I came upon a scout reveling in his description of his latest seduction, be the seductee male or female. Its ok if a scout has heterosexual sex (outside of marriage) but not if its homosexual sex?

 

There are no gay scouts, there are no straight scouts, there are only scouts

[CalicoPenn]

"The Scout Camp in Chesapeake, VA had to be shut down for three years because of a gay ranger sexually harassing older scouts."

 

I'm calling BS on this. There is no reason whatsoever for a council to be forced to close a scout camp for three years if they had a gay ranger sexually harassing older scouts. The council would fire the ranger, bring in a new ranger, and just keep the camp operating. It's not that difficult. Why would the council have to close the camp for three years? To disinfect the woods? To preserve some kind of physical evidence of harrassment? Please - get real. If the council closed the camp, it had nothing to do with their having a gay ranger.

 

I'll see your good reason for not allowing gay males to be scout leaders with the recent story of a female Scouter in Illinois caught in a sexual relationship with a Scout, and raise with the statistic that 95% of all child molesters are straight men. I guess that leaves only lesbians as potential Scout leaders from now on.

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

"The Scout Camp in Chesapeake, VA had to be shut down for three years because of a gay ranger sexually harassing older scouts."

 

This is my Council and has been for 40 years. This never happened. I'd appreciate it if people would quit spreading lies.

[BrentAllen]

OGE, does your Troop prohibit Scouts from dating until they are 18?

 

There are a lot of stages of intimacy.

 

Kissing and hand-holding, for example. How would you feel if you saw one of your Scouts kissing his girlfriend at the high school football game? How would you feel if you saw one of your Scouts kissing his boyfriend at a high school football game?

 

Would you do or say anything about either of the above scenarios?

 

If you choose to answer the questions, please do not assume anything on my account.

[OldGreyEagle]

being only able to speak about things from my own experience and where I live, if a scout was seen kissing his boyfriend at the football game, or any place else, having me see them would be the absolute least thing they would have to worry about.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Interesting. Is that due to the "he isn't on a Scout function, so it isn't related to Scouting" thinking, or something else? As one of the leaders in the Troop, do you not feel you have an obligation to bring this up with the SM or CC? Are you not concerned about how his actions might affect the reputation of your Troop?

[OldGreyEagle]

OK, I will play along

 

If I were to see a member of the troop, kissing his "boyfriend" at a football game or other place, I can tell you what I would plan to do.

 

First of all, I would not go running to the Scoutmaster or Committee Chair. I would talk to the boy, tell him what I saw and ask him what is going on. He may have lost a bet with a friend, it may have been a prank, then again it may not be. If he said he had homosexual feelings, I would ask him if he had talked to anyone about it if anyone. I know I am not qualified to discuss such things with a youth, but I know a few people who are. I would help him arrange an appointment with one of them.

 

If he decides he is indeed gay, then we would have a discussion on what that means. I would not being the one running off to snitch on the scout, the scout would tell the Committee Chair himself, with me present if he wanted.

 

Oh and by the way, all such discussions would be done in accordance with Youth protection Guidelines and in public view