State Supported Halloween

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, so this may be viewed as a lark, but yet I am interested in what others think. Halloween is this week and this past week end just about every town in the area I seerve, had a Halloween parade and it struck me, this is state supported religion. Halloween is of course a contraction of the phrase "All Hallow's Eve" the day before All Saints Day, a holy day of obligation in the Catholic Church. Santa Claus is a contraction of Saint Nicholas so this thing has prescedent. Now, the early church was good at co-opting existing holidays to make the aceptance of Christianity more palatable to the masses. I realize that All Saints Day and All Hallow's Eve is based on the Druish calendar, so whether you think of Halloween as Christian or Druish in origin, it deinitely has roots in a religious celebration, so why do public schools and other governmental units unabashedly celebrate it?

 

[DanKroh]

Um...Druish? Sorry, just not a term I hear in connection with Samhain very often. (Not to mention it brings up that great line from Spaceballs.)

 

Governments and public schools celebrate it because it's been secularized. There are no religious elements (at least, not Pagan) in how the holiday is celebrated by most everyone else. Same as (Saint) Valentine's Day, or Groundhog Day (the Pagan holiday Imbolc).

 

But there has been a growing trend in recent years to ban Halloween celebrations from schools because it's "satanic". (cue scary music)

 

I think a better question is, why do schools close for Good Friday, Rosh Hashanah (and sometimes Yom Kippur), and of course, Winter and Spring breaks (better known as Christmas and Easter vacations)?

[OldGreyEagle]

OK, I admit I am deficient in my pagan knowledge. But wasnt the original use of the jack-o-lantern to scare away the spirits that may only roam the earth one night a year? And if so, that makes then a relgious icon, flagrantly displayed in school and governmental buildings.

 

And if its ok for Schools and Goverment units to celebrate Halloween because its secularized, what about Christmas? Christmas Trees, Jingle Bells, Holly, Ivy overburdening postal workers, .... Other than the Nativity Scene, how much of what comprises the modern Christmas is based in religion? Is it not secularized to the point of commercialism? Do Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim children not participate in Halloween because they are neither Christian or Pagan?

[evmori]

Great point OGE!

 

Just watched Space Balls (for the umpteenth time) the other day! The Druish line is one of many great lines from this movie!

 

Governments and public schools celebrate it because it's been secularized.

 

An Christmas isn't? Christmas has been over commercialized for decades! Halloween is just starting to catch up! Poor argument!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[DanKroh]

"OK, I admit I am deficient in my pagan knowledge. But wasnt the original use of the jack-o-lantern to scare away the spirits that may only roam the earth one night a year? And if so, that makes then a relgious icon, flagrantly displayed in school and governmental buildings."

 

No, the jack-o-lantern has no place in Pagan Samhain celebrations. Samhain is about honoring one's ancestors and those that have passed over in the previous year. Why would we want to "scare them away"? Not to mention that pumpkins are native to North America.

 

"And if its ok for Schools and Goverment units to celebrate Halloween because its secularized, what about Christmas? Christmas Trees, Jingle Bells, Holly, Ivy overburdening postal workers"

 

Actually, I personally would prefer if Halloween was not celebrated by non-Pagans. I much prefer not to have a mockery made of my sacred days, thank you very much.

 

"Other than the Nativity Scene, how much of what comprises the modern Christmas is based in religion?"

 

Almost none of it, actually. Most of those other trappings of Christmas are shared by Pagan Yule celebrations (and guess which ones came first?).

 

"Do Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim children not participate in Halloween because they are neither Christian or Pagan?"

 

Don't know about Hindu and Buddhist, but Muslim doctrine forbids the celebration of Halloween because it is "of the devil".

[DanKroh]

Just to clarify, OGE, since I can't seem to edit right now.

 

I don't think it's ok for schools to celebrate Halloween. Just that is the rationale that is used. I would prefer if they didn't.

[Trevorum]

I think most holidays have both religious and secular components. The mix between the two varies not only from holiday to holiday but from person to person for any given holiday. For example, Thanksgiving is nearly wholly secular (but is recognized from the pulpit in some faiths) while Yom Kippur is nearly wholly religious (but some people take off work that day just because they can). Similarly, one person will see Christmas and Easter as primarily religious days while his next door neigbor will celebrate them as secular holidays.

 

In this vein, Dan celebrates Samhain as a religious day but OGE celebrates it as a secular one, while OGE celebrates Christmas as a religious day but Dan celebrates it as a secular one. Or not. Several threads ago someone expressed the opinion that non-Christians should not celebrate Christmas because they did not accept the religious origins of the holiday. This mystified me as uch as Dan suggesting that non-Pagans celebrating Halloween is creating a mockery of a religious day. In both cases, I don't think any insult is intended. Regardless of historical origins, Christians claiming ownership of modern Christmas is as silly as pagans claiming ownership of modern Halloween. Today, both holidays have a significant (perhaps primarily) secular component.

 

Of course this just my own view; my family is neither Christian nor pagan and we've always celebrated both holidays equally.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

AH, but Trev, the question is whether or not public schools should be celebrating a religious holiday? Should government buildings be festooned with Halloween symbols? Is not a city sanction of Trick or Treat Hours endorsing religion? Should not all vestiges of Halloweem be removed from our public schools and governmental buildings and perhaps we celebrate a harvest festival?

[DanKroh]

"This mystified me as uch as Dan suggesting that non-Pagans celebrating Halloween is creating a mockery of a religious day."

 

Well, Trev, I think the difference is that every single secular Halloween "tradition" was originally created with the express purpose of mocking the Pagan celebration of Samhain. Whereas most people who celebrate a secular Christmas feel they are honoring the "spirit" of the holiday, if not the Christian celebration.

 

I agree that in modern times, the mockery has been mostly forgotten, and most people celebrate Halloween secularly, without any intention of mocking or insulting Pagans. Which is why you will see very few Pagans making any public fuss over how anyone celebrates Halloween. Well, except for maybe those hideous effigies of witches. And I know lots of Pagans who observe many of the same secular Halloween traditions (although if we include any "witches" at all, they are usually much prettier).

 

In fact, most of the impetus these days to ban Halloween celebrations is coming from the religious right, not from the Pagans.

[Trevorum]

OGE, perhaps I wasn't as explicit as I could have been. A public school recognizing Halloween is allowing kids to celebate the secular component of the holiday with jack o'lanterns and Luke Skywalker costumes and tootsie rolls. Just as recognizing Christmas is allowing kids to celebate the secular component of that holiday with Santa Claus, talking snowmen, and gaudily wrapped presents. Now if the school included the strictly religious components of either holiday (creche scenes, ancestor ceremonies), I would object.

[Trevorum]

Dan, you may be right about the origins of some of the modern Haloween traditions. I don't know, so I'll defer to you. However, I doubt that today anyone intends any true insult to pagans.

 

(And yes, the one witch I have known was a hottie!)

[OldGreyEagle]

And I dont think anyone who celebrates Christmas necessarily wants to insult Christians. But I dont want tax money spent in either a public school or in a government building to celebrate any type of religious holiday as it violates the Constitution.

 

Just because a relatively few people celebrate it as a religious holiday is no reason to support it through public funds

[Trevorum]

But again, you miss the point! My argument is that nearly ALL (if not all) of our modern holidays have some religious meaning to someone. If schools were to eliminate ALL holidays that have the least twinge of a religious component, those little kids would have nothing left!

 

Since our modern culture is derived primarily from European and Judeo-Christian roots, it is not surprising that most of our holidays have some connection to that faith tradition. But denying those little Buddhist and Islamic and Hindu tykes the joy of a secular Christmas celebration is just, well, Grinchish! (how's that for a neologism!) Santa Claus is for ALL kids! And similarly, denying those little Christian kiddies the opportunity to carve pumpkins at school is also Grinchish.

 

imho.

[DanKroh]

"Just because a relatively few people celebrate it as a religious holiday is no reason to support it through public funds"

 

OGE, the difference is, NO ONE celebrates "Halloween" as a religious holiday. I'm not sure what the celebrations for "All Saint's Day" are for the Catholics, but I am willing to make a solid bet that they don't involve anything resembling "Halloween". Pagan celebrations of Samhain also have nothing to do with the observance of "Halloween". They happen to occur on the same day. That's it.

 

Saying that Halloween celebrations are religious (at least, from a Pagan point of view) is like saying snowflakes are religious decorations because they happen to be around during Christmas. Halloween was NEVER a religious holiday. It was a secular holiday created to detract from Samhain.

[OldGreyEagle]

So, its ok to not have a Christmas Celebration, and not have Santa Claus in a Public School as that is too religious and have a mid winters festival, which just may have some religious tinge to it as well, but we can have a slightly religious holiday such as Halloween because we feel sorry for the kids? Either we have religious holidays in public schools or we dont. Settling on which are major or minor holidays is not the issue. Halloween comes from a religious celebration so schools who celebrate it and then do not celebrate Christmas are being inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst

 

Edited Part since I posted just seconsd after Dan:

 

Dan, no one celebrates the Pagan Samhain anymore?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)