Philly raises scouts rent $199,999/year

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gold Winger, do you have anything to add besides a baseless personal attack?

 

For your information, I've been quite involved in countering the BSA's discrimination against atheists; I worked with the Illinois ACLU in stopping public schools from chartering packs & troops, because it kinda bothered me for 10,000 public schools across the US to be violating the rights of atheist students by unlawfully running private clubs that excluded atheists. I do not take civil rights violations lying down.

[Trevorum]

Goldwing,

Merlyn's activism may mystify you, but please be assured he is honorable and a worthy adversary (to BSA, not me).

[yelruh]

I live outside of Philly. There is a bit of talk in the press about all the good that the scouts do for the city. This at a time when the city has a climbing murder rate.

 

I find it interesting that the scout counsel aren't the ones doing any obvious barnstorming about this issue. They maybe doing something behind the scenes.

 

What is especially interesting is that there was a troop on national TV this morning on The Today program for helping a woman on the AT at Hawk mountain this past weekend.

 

[erickelly65]

understand the view that a public organization shouldnt sponsor a selective/private organization. However, I disagree with the general assertion that a group subscribing to a particular belief system that makes belief in that view a requirement of membership is victimizing (aka "discriminating against" in the legal sense) others that don't subscribe to those beliefs. i.e. Muslim's are not victimizing me by not letting me enter their mosque, nor Masons that wont allow me access to their lodge, etc.

 

How easy to cry victim and what an age-old and effective method to color your opponent as the evil oppressor. I am not violating your civil rights when I want my son to belong to a program that professes a duty to God and a belief that a scout is Reverent. If youre an atheist and want a secular scouting experience, go create it. (The US scouting program is in the minority in having only one Boy Scouting program in our country) If there was such a long line of people wanting to join, scouting for all would be kicking our rear-ends. The sad thing is that those screaming about the scouts stances on homosexuality and atheism dont give a rats-rear about the Scouting program, the benefits it brings to boys and our society as a whole. They only seek to progress their particular agenda and then move on to tilt at the next windmill they find.

 

If people want the government to yank funding for our program because of that stance, fine. I dont agree with it but perhaps that is as fair and balanced an arrangement as we can arrive upon. If you are going to make me chose between my religious belief and a little bit of money, Ill gladly give up the later. It will take some time to adjust the programs, their chartering orgs and the funding base but I am sure the BSA will adapt and overcome. And we are doing quite well here in Houston (numbers on a whole are slightly off as of the last few years but up this year (My pack has had 90+% growth in the last 5 years). As a fund raiser for BSA, I have found no shortage of individuals, business and other organizations willing to crack open a checkbook. Sam Houston Area Council broke the 1 million dollar mark in last years family FOS campaign. The rumors of the BSAs impending demise are over stated.

 

I have noted in this forum before, I believe the BSA should re-assess its stance on the membership of homosexuals. My faith leads me to believe that I should accept them as Gods children even if I believe their lifestyle misguided. (Love the sinner, hate the sin) I am less open to the idea of removing the faith and duty to God elements of the program.

 

I have no problem with people who are atheists. At the same time, I do want my child to participate in a BSA program that does espouse ones responsibility to God and a belief in a higher power. If someone that is an atheist wants to join and is willing to say the oath and pledge and follow the program as is and not interfere with my ability to teach (within the existing BSA program) my children the belief system I want them to follow, then more power to them and welcome to Scouting. Otherwise I say neigh.

 

[VinceC]

Regarding the lease agreement. Many have commented on what the original lease states, and what changes could be made, if this or that is permitted, etc. Has anyone on this board seen an actual copy of the lease agreement of which we discuss? Or is it all spectulation and second hand information from their own "reliable" sources. I am a member of this council and don't know of anyone that claims to have seen the lease. Cradle of Liberty has been fairly quiet on the issue the past week. Maybe the time is up for the council, or maybe they know something in the lease the rest of us don't.

The building itself is located in a very desirable area. It is just off the Benjamin Franklin Parkway, and is near the Philadelphia Musuem of Art, The Acadamy of Natural Sciences, the main branch of The Free Library, The Franklin Institute, The Rodin Museum, and many more like this. Even though I have no proof, and given the state of the City of Philadelphia government, I can't help but think that the city already has something in mind for that piece of property. Just a gut feeling.

[Gold Winger]

Looks like I struck a nerve. Your attempts to justify your actions sound far too much like "My mom didn't have anything to do with it!"

[eolesen]

And all this time I assumed that Merlyn was someone who was trying to effect change from within...

 

Since he's clearly out to remove one of the core principles of Scouting, I don't see any value in debating issues with him any further.

 

 

DanKroh asks "eolesen, can you give an example of a scout unit being denied access to public facilities that other groups are still allowed to use? Not a scout unit being denied a special rate (i.e. special lease rate) to use that facility, but being told that they do not have the same access to that public facility that other groups have?"

 

Kind of. Our pack is allowed to use the school free of charge, yet in order to have our committee meetings, we were being charged $150 a month for "utilities and custodial services" that other groups didn't appear to be charged for. We now use the public library, who doesn't charge residents for meeting rooms...

 

Where I see hypocracy in that my son's HS doesn't think twice about allowing the "Rainbow Club" (comprised of gay/lesbian/transgender leaning minors and their friends, led by school staffers, and given full access to student activity funds) to exist and promote itself, but organizations like Fellowship of Christian Atheletes and Scouts are seen as evil because their association is based entirely or in part on a belief in God.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

erickelly65 writes:

However, I disagree with the general assertion that a group subscribing to a particular belief system that makes belief in that view a requirement of membership is victimizing (aka "discriminating against" in the legal sense)

 

"discriminating against" in the legal sense has nothing to do with victimizing. If an organization doesn't allow married people, it's discriminating on the basis of marital status. If an organization doesn't allow single people, it's ALSO discriminating on the basis of marital status. Everyone would find themselves discriminated against by one of these two organizations.

 

How easy to cry victim and what an age-old and effective method to color your opponent as the evil oppressor. I am not violating your civil rights when I want my son to belong to a program that professes a duty to God and a belief that a scout is Reverent.

 

You do if you have public schools run them, as Brent and Fred Goodwin have.

 

If youre an atheist and want a secular scouting experience, go create it. (The US scouting program is in the minority in having only one Boy Scouting program in our country)

 

No, that's actually a WOSM requirement. Other countries have all their scouting orgs as part of one umbrella organization to satisfy WOSM.

 

And what if I'm an atheist and I simply want my public schools to stop violating the civil rights of atheists?

 

If people want the government to yank funding for our program because of that stance, fine. I dont agree with it but perhaps that is as fair and balanced an arrangement as we can arrive upon.

 

How nice you begrudgingly agree that fair and equal treatment is fair & equal, even though you don't agree with it. That's mighty white of you.

 

I have no problem with people who are atheists. At the same time, I do want my child to participate in a BSA program that does espouse ones responsibility to God and a belief in a higher power. If someone that is an atheist wants to join and is willing to say the oath and pledge and follow the program as is and not interfere with my ability to teach (within the existing BSA program) my children the belief system I want them to follow, then more power to them and welcome to Scouting.

 

So you don't mind admitting atheists as long as they're willing to lie and pretend to believe in a god. Well, I think that's as good an illustration why public schools have no business chartering packs.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gold Winger writes:

Looks like I struck a nerve. Your attempts to justify your actions sound far too much like "My mom didn't have anything to do with it!"

 

Are you going to stop with the personal attacks? I guess not, since you have nothing of value to add.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

eolesen writes:

And all this time I assumed that Merlyn was someone who was trying to effect change from within...

 

I might have been able to back when I was a cub scout at about age 10, but since I was an atheist and my mom, who was a den mother, was also an atheist, it was before the BSA started kicking out atheists as policy. Since the BSA doesn't admit atheists, I can't effect change from within now.

 

Since he's clearly out to remove one of the core principles of Scouting, I don't see any value in debating issues with him any further.

 

If it's a "core principle", how come closeted atheists are in the BSA? How come some areas allow overt atheists? If it was a "core principle", it shouldn't function if it's missing. How come some countries allow atheists in scouting, and have godless promises?

 

Where I see hypocracy in that my son's HS doesn't think twice about allowing the "Rainbow Club" (comprised of gay/lesbian/transgender leaning minors and their friends, led by school staffers, and given full access to student activity funds) to exist and promote itself, but organizations like Fellowship of Christian Atheletes and Scouts are seen as evil because their association is based entirely or in part on a belief in God.

 

FCA and scouts discriminate on the basis of religion, which public schools can't do. I'm willing to bet anyone can join the Rainbow Club. And in what way are they "seen as evil"? Does your public school state that FCA members and scouts can't be the best kinds of citizens?

[eolesen]

I'll be praying for you, Merlyn. Really.

[Gold Winger]

Mervyn says, "really, my mom had nothing to do with it!"

 

Mervyn claims to be concerned about "civil rights" but does he do anything about important issues like the fact that my employer doesn't require women to tuck in their shirts but men have to? No, he doesn't.

 

Mervyn is a spoiler. Other people are having fun and rather than find his own way to have fun, Mervyn will spend all of his time doing his best to make sure that others can't have fun.

 

A classic example of a spoiler would be the talentless boy who always gets picked last for the baseball game so he gets his mommy to call the police and file a complaint that children are playing at the vacant lot on 37th street. That's Mervyn . . . and his mother.

[Lisabob]

There is one poster who occasionally shows up on this board who seems to delight in getting the names of certain posters wrong - generally, female posters. I'm pretty sure he does it intentionally, although I'm willing to chalk it up to a matter of pitiable cluelessness too. So, in that vein, I notice that the forum nickname of our resident atheist and advocate for changing the BSA's membership requirements appears to be MerLyn and not MerVyn.

 

Beyond that...

 

Gold Winger writes: "Mervyn claims to be concerned about "civil rights" but does he do anything about important issues like the fact that my employer doesn't require women to tuck in their shirts but men have to? No, he doesn't."

 

This strikes me as a silly rule that your employer has, and one that perhaps ought to be brought up by your union (if you have one). It is not, however, a civil rights issue. The Constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to go about with their shirts untucked (nor require them to tuck shirts in, either).

 

On the other hand, whether one agrees or disagrees with Merlyn's view, the Constitution does have something to say about the establishment of religion. We can, and have in the past, debated what that means ad nauseum. Of course, the Supreme Court has been fairly clear on this matter so we could also save ourselves some time and bandwidth by going with what they say. But at the very least - the question of whether government-run schools can sponsor clubs that have religious requirements for membership is a thornier issue than whether or not your employer can make you tuck in your shirt.

 

And in the end I'm really not sure how baiting a specific poster and making cracks about people's mothers has much to do with the topic at hand.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Gold Winger, we all transgress from time to time and so we will forgive you. In the future though, I hope you will, as a Scouter, be more Courteous.

[BrentAllen]

Schools CAN NOT discriminate against FCA clubs, per the Equal Access Act.

 

http://www.fca.org/Campus/HuddleFAQs.lsp

 

http://image.teamfca.net/siteuploadfiles/FCA/59D89C1C-74BF-4C4F-978D811000467BC8/432A85C5-0108-4489-BD013CD1DBD4F824.pdf

 

The BSA says boys can't be the best kind of citizens unless they respect a higher authority. It does not say a boy can't be a great citizen or a good citizen or a fantastic citizen - we just say they can't be the best kind of citizen. That is our opinion, your's may differ. I don't see how that is insulting to anyone.

 

I don't know what kind of school baseball team you were on, but I've never heard of one like that. Who did you play, if you didn't play other schools?