Philly raises scouts rent $199,999/year

[molscouter]

Eric and other newbies,

 

Merlyn gets his jollies from these discussions. He doesn't apply the same standards to himself that he requires of others (for which I will now be branded a "liar"). Even if you catch him in some sort of misstatement, he won't admit it. Someone a few pages back said he was a spoiler who would rather stop others from having fun rather than construct his own. I submit this is how he has his fun. Be a spoiler back and don't give it to him. Most of the veteran posters refuse to give him this thrill and just ignore him.

[packsaddle]

Erickelly65 wrote, "How could the BSA accomodate non-theists and retain the theistic elements of its program?"

The answer is that BSA does this already. Read what DanKroh and GernBlansten recently wrote in this thread.

[erickelly65]

How could the BSA accomodate non-theists and retain the theistic elements of its program?

 

What do you think of how the GSUSA handles it? For that matter, some BSA units allow atheists -- they deliberately ignore the policy. It's hardly a question of how to do it when it's being done.

 

 

Merlyn, I am only questioning it because none of my suggestions (posted earlier) on how to accommodate were acceptable. In fact, when I suggested that very thing (doing what the GSUSA does) you scoffed at me.

 

I wrote:

I have no problem with people who are atheists. At the same time, I do want my child to participate in a BSA program that does espouse ones responsibility to God and a belief in a higher power. If someone that is an atheist wants to join and is willing to say the oath and pledge and follow the program as is and not interfere with my ability to teach (within the existing BSA program) my children the belief system I want them to follow, then more power to them and welcome to Scouting.

 

You replied:

So you don't mind admitting atheists as long as they're willing to lie and pretend to believe in a god. Well, I think that's as good an illustration why public schools have no business chartering packs.

 

As an aside, the GSA promise:

 

Girl Scouts of the USA

On my honor, I will try:

To serve God* and my country,

To help people at all times,

And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

 

The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.

 

( I am not sure if God can be replaced with , Another question, what about boys and girls that didnt want to say the duty to country part?)

 

[erickelly65]

Molscouter,

Thanks for the pointer. I am sure I'm having as much fun as Merlyn. I enjoy the back and forth of it all as I assume Merlyn does. Discussion like this is what makes this country great. We can be heated and even a bit testy at times but at the end of the day the peaceful interchange of believes and thoughts is a good thing. The only thing that would be better would be to do it all face to face over a few pints.

[packsaddle]

Molscouter,

That "jollies" comment could well apply to many of us but although I have no idea what source Merlyn has for "jollies", I have been impressed with the attention to detail he brings with his arguments. I have been unable to find flaws in his logic.

Yes, he is direct and he is obviously very interested in one aspect of BSA. But he brings a valuable perspective to the forums.

You don't have to like him. But if calling him a "spoiler" is the best you can do for a counter-argument, it doesn't exactly indicate great merit for your ideas. If you want to really have an impact, bring a better idea to the forum with better reasoning to back it up.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eric, the difference between the BSA and the GSUSA is that the BSA requires members to promise to do their 'duty to god', while the GSUSA allows members to change the promise and omit the word 'god' and replace it with something else, which could be non-theistic like 'my conscience'.

[erickelly65]

Merlyn,

So I assume then that to you there is no way to keep the "Duty to God" in the oath and Reverent in the scout law and not be an organization that is invidiously discriminatory.

 

 

I didnt realize that the GS's allowed the substitution of "God" with a non-theistic alternative. Thanks for the info.

[molscouter]

Eric,

 

So long as you enjoy the give and take, go for it. Just know you won't "win" (but you likley have already realized that).

 

Packsaddle,

 

Merlyn certainly does bring a different and often unpopular slant to the forums. That's fine. My main gripe with him is the standards thing. If you misinterpret one of his opinions (or what HE thought he was trying to say), you are branded a liar. If he does the same with one of your statements, it's nothing of the sort. Sorry, that doesn't wash with me. I choose to ignore him because these threads are usually interesting for 3-4 pages and then usually evolve into a big circle going nowhere.

 

I didn't originate the spoiler comment, Gold Winger did, and it's an adjective that I think applies. I just don't see Merlyn as being constructive. I'll go back to the "liar" branding; I just don't see in a debate how calling someone a name is building any sort of bridge to reach a common ground. It just serves to alienate and make the other more unlikely to try to see your point.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

erickelly65, I wouldn't say that ANY organization that requires a 'duty to god' would automatically be guilty of invidious discrimination. However, the BSA has held itself out as being an organization for "all boys", had public schools chartering units (25% of cub scout packs in Texas were chartered by public schools years after the Dale decision), and the way the declaration of religious principle says that only theists can be the 'best kinds of citizens', along with a host of other details, I certainly consider the BSA's discrimination to be invidious.

 

molscouter, I tend to call people liars when I consider them to be lying. When someone tries to TELL ME what I'M THINKING and GETS IT WRONG, I'm CERTAIN they're lying, and I will say so.

[DanKroh]

erickelly65 writes "So I assume then that to you there is no way to keep the "Duty to God" in the oath and Reverent in the scout law and not be an organization that is invidiously discriminatory."

 

Actually, I think, and I bet Merlyn would agree, that you can maintain both elements and still allow atheists.

 

Reverent is actually the easier of the two. There are many to be reverent without gods. One can revere nature, or the human spirit, or the fabulous complexity of the universe. Nope, no gods required there, although if you happen to think that gods are responsible for all that stuff, it works just as well.

 

One way to handle the "duty to God" thing is the way the Girl Scouts do; allow substitution of another word. Before complaining that that "takes God out of scouting", think on this. What exactly is our "duty to God"? Well, that probably differs depending on your concept of God. For some, that duty is to worship. But for some, the duty that a god requires is to improve themselves (and by extension, the world around them), or to demonstrate kindess and goodwill to their fellow man. If someone feels a duty to demonstrate kindness and goodwill, that doesn't spring from a god, don't they still fulfill that duty in exactly the same way as someone who feels that the exact same duty comes from "God"? Frankly, I would have no problem having someone who substituted "duty to Mankind" because in the end, that is what some Gods really require of their followers anyway.

[Trevorum]

Just in case it isn't clear, the BSA already accepts people who do not believe in God (or any god). There is even a BSA approved religious award called the Sangha. The people are called Buddhists. Not believing in a god, these people are (ipso facto) atheists.

[DanKroh]

Dang, Trev, why'd you have to go and point out that elephant sitting in the middle of the room?

 

I'd love to see the hand-waving prestidigitation that went on that allowed that elephant in to begin with.

[PeteM]

Isn't it true that with the various places that refuse to allow Scouts to use their places because the BSA discriminates, in itself a discriminatory action in itself? They are saying that we don't want you because of the same reason you won't allow ___________ (fill it in)?

[erickelly65]

Trev,

Thanks for the info but for me its a "so what" point. For me, its never been about keeping atheists out as being able to keep the traditional faith elements in the program that support my beliefs. (My son belongs to the pack chartered at our church and if other packs want to have other standards that would be cool with me too)

 

To paraphrase Lincoln stated in 1862: "If I could have scouting without allowing any atheists I would do it; and if I could have it by allowing all the atheists in I would do it; and if I could have it by allowing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Which places, PeteM?

 

Trevorum, not every buddhist is an atheist, from what I've read. But it's true that some are, and here's some interesting correspondence from someone on the buddhist committee on scouting:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting.issues/msg/15ed2e62c872ccad