Spinoff Re: "homosexual behavior is automatically disqualifying"

[Lisabob]

Joni - based on your most recent post it sounds like everybody did pretty much the right thing at this point. (the post before last had me thinking it had still gone unreported so I'm glad to hear that's not the case.) What a messy situation. I know you'll keep close tabs on all of the participants going forward.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually Joni, had you reported what you heard, and only what you heard and it turned out to be real, you would not have been the one throwing the boy out of scouts, it would have been the consequences of the boys. not your, actions

[Joni4TA]

Good point OGE - very good point. It would be hard for me not to feel partially responsible or at the very least, empathetic, if a boy got the boot from Scouting for any reason, but I understand it wouldn't have been "ME" to blame. I would just feel horrible about it all.

 

And I was just trying to say, at THIS POINT in the situation, I don't see how I can do anything except watch more closely and get more involved with the unit - one more set of eyes so to speak.

 

I, too, fear some future issue may arise. But judging by the track record of this unit, it won't be a boy who raises the next issue, it'll be a Scouter! Half the time it seems more trouble ensues via adult issues than boy issues. That is really disheartening, too!

[mtm25653]

Beavah, I'm confused - you said following my advice (in my council, call the SE) could be a problem, and then you gave the same advice (refer the matter to the SE).

 

Also, I'm a little concerned that you expect untrained people to evaluate the validity of a child's complaint of abuse based on his emotional state ("there's no boy sitting there crying") - does that mean if a child calmly tells you he/she was abused, they are not telling the truth? I disagree strongly with that, from personal experience.

[Beavah]

Yah, sorry for da confusion, mtm.

 

I was responding to the other pieces in your post, eh? The bits about child abuse mandatory reporting requirements, statutory immunity and all that. It just seemed to me like a confused muddle that needed to be clarified.

 

Reporting to the SE does not relieve your obligation if you are a mandatory reporter of abuse or neglect. Your responsibility in those cases is to report to the authorities, specifically the state children's services office.

 

Reporting to the SE does not give you statutory immunity.

 

There is no criminal penalty for not reporting a crime of battery in most states, what you posted only applies to child abuse (by a parent or guardian).

 

The situation didn't involve evidence or a personal, first-hand report. In fact, as Joni describes, it was rumor on rumor.

 

You're correct that "emotional state" is only one issue for a trained person to consider, and not something for a person not trained. Bad for me to say that here. Da real issue is having the first-hand report. I put that in only because sometimes kids have learned words but don't understand their meaning. I've seen kids (and parents) use the word "abused" for being made to miss dessert. So yeh gotta use some judgment. Thank you for correcting me on the emotional state bit.

 

Beavah

 

[CalicoPenn]

Beavah will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe what he is saying is that a violation of YPT isn't neccessarily a violation of a state's child welfare laws - that something reported to the Scout Executive wouldn't neccessarily be reported to a state's child welfare agency. At the same time, IF you are a state mandated reporter (I don't know of any states that have included Scoutmasters in that list (yet)) and there is a YPT incident that you would be mandated to report to the state, reporting it only to the Scout Executive would not be an acceptable substitute, you must also, and likely must first, report it to the child welfare department in your state (or whomever you are tasked by law to report it too). If you are NOT a state mandated reporter, then you are under no legal obligation to report it to the state - but if you do, you will generally be protected by state laws protecting reporters from prosecution for "wrongful reporting". (Do I have it right, Beav?).

 

I faced this issue myself when I was working for the Council's Cub Scout Day Camp. Council policy was that if we suspected that a child was being abused in any way, we were to report it to the Scout Executive only, not to any other authorities. I was an Emergency Medical Technician (EMT-A, before I took further steps to become a Paramedic - EMT-P) and in my state I was a State Mandated Reporter. At first, Council's intended response was to rescind that years job offer (yes, we were paid - a whole $100/week)until the Summer Camp health officer, also an EMT-A, told the Summer Camp Director he could not follow this directive either, and no other health professional would be able to follow this directive (this was the first year we were mandated by the state to report and the mandate for the first few years was limited to MD's, RN's, LPN's, and EMT's, Firefighters and Police Officers) - and that was in the early 80's). Faced with the loss of their health staff at both the summer camp and cub day camp, and on advice of the Council's legal counsel, the policy was amended so as not to preclude Mandated Reporters from reporting but requiring that the Scout Executive be informed of any mandated reports made. There were an awful lot of firefighters and police officers that were volunteer adult leaders that would be mandated to report. We were required to report even if we weren't working "professionally" but were merely volunteering, and even if that volunteering was not related to the our reporting status - in other words, if I were working at a Camporee station and in the course of the event saw something that would lead me to suspect that a Scout might be being abused (say his shirt rode up his back and I saw what looked like burn or whip marks), even if I didn't know him, hadn't spoke to him, or treated him, I would still be mandated to make a report.

 

As for Psycho Female Scouter - the DE wants you to document? The heck with that - tell the DE in no uncertain terms that this woman is not to interfere with your unit ever again, that she is not to try to get involved, that she is not to approach any of the Unit's Scouts, Parents or Leaders. Get the COR's backing and anytime she shows up at a troop activity or troop event, call the police and have her arrested - if need be, tell the DE that you want Council's help in getting a restraining order against her (unless one of the parents/Scouter's in the unit is an attorney or has a good attorney that may help with this pro-bono, ask that the Council's legal counsel be made available). She's got to be gone - NOW - before she does any more harm and before she victimizes more of your Scouts.

 

Calico

[Beavah]

Yah, dat's pretty much right, Calico.

 

It's so tough 'cause states are so different.

 

In some states, everybody is a mandatory reporter.

In most states, only professionals (who would be trained in recognizing the signs of abuse) are mandatory reporters, but other folks are "optional" or "discretionary" reporters.

In some states, professionals are only mandatory reporters when they have contact with a youth in their professional capacity.

In some states, professionals are mandatory reporters 24/7 da way Calico describes.

 

In most states, child abuse can only be committed by a parent or guardian. Some states add caregiver.

In some states, child abuse can also be committed by any other adult relative who lives with the boy.

In a few states, child abuse can be committed by staff of a long-term camp or other long-term resident youth education program (boarding school, etc.) who are acting in loco parentis.

In no states that I'm aware of can a scouter commit child abuse on a short-term (weekend) trip.

 

Mandatory and optional reporting for nothing more than "reasonable suspicion" (and statutory immunity for reporting) apply only to child abuse, however your state defines it.

 

Probably trainers should use some kind of decision matrix or tree rather than just tryin' to explain this stuff. I tried to post one, but it's too annoyin' to format.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

Here's an attempt. Scouter.Com doesn't handle this formattin' well.

 

This is just a discussion example. It is not legal advice and should not be relied upon as such. The actual advice for inside each square is going to depend on the state, whether or not the person is a mandatory reporter, how child abuse is defined. It might also depend on da policies of the council and the chartered org. But if you're a district or council trainer, yeh might suggest that the SE have their legal counsel and child/social work professionals do somethin' along these lines to help folks, since there seems to be a lot of confusion. Or not... the feelin' may be that it's too complicated in real life and folks should just call for help, which is a fine thing. But I'm in favor of at least givin' people some kind of education up front.

 

 

 

Evidence of abuse or neglect crime against a kid (kids testimony, you witnessed crime, clear physical signs of abuse like multiple cigarette burns on back, etc.)

 

 

Crime Occurred in Scouting

(or was perpetrated by a scout leader who had access to

the boy because of Scouting)

 

 

Crime did not occur in Scouting

 

 

 

 

Parent/guardian/caregiver involved

 

 

Notify law enforcement, help arrange for

temporary/protective custody for child; notify SE and CO

 

 

Notify law enforcement, help arrange for

temporary/protective custody for child.

 

 

 

 

Parent/guardian/caregiver not involved.

 

 

Notify parents, law enforcement, SE, and CO

 

 

Notify parents, law enforcement

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reasonable suspicion of abuse or neglect crime against a kid

 

 

Crime Occurred in Scouting

(or was perpetrated by a scout leader who had access to

the boy because of Scouting)

 

 

Crime did not occur in Scouting

 

 

 

 

Parent/guardian/caregiver involved

 

 

Notify/consult with SE and CO. Call Child Protective Services or ensure SE/CO have done so

 

 

Call Child Protective Services

 

 

 

 

Parent/guardian/caregiver not involved.

 

 

Notify SE and CO. Take reasonable action to monitor and enforce BSA and CO policies to keep kids safe while investigation proceeds.

 

 

Consult with experienced professional. Alert parents to your concern.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Calico and Beavah have encapsulated this nicely. Years ago, during YPT training, a heated discussion along these lines occurred and this thread would have been quite helpful back then. I also didn't help that the training was being led by someone barely equivalent to a really intelligent bucket of nails. But Calico and Beavah did a nice job. Thanks.

[mtm25653]

Thanks, Beavah, for the clarification.

 

The legal type stuff I quoted from before is from my council's policy (linked from the online Youth Protection training) - though I don't know for sure that it is legally correct, I suggest that people look at (and save a copy) of their council's policy, to give them guidance.

[Beavah]

The legal type stuff I quoted from before is from my council's policy (linked from the online Youth Protection training) - though I don't know for sure that it is legally correct, I suggest that people look at (and save a copy) of their council's policy, to give them guidance.

 

Nuthin' wrong with it, eh? In fact, I bet they copied it straight from a social work fact sheet or some other local document. (Though I once caught my local council copyin' something from an out-of-state council which didn't apply to us ).

 

Problem is just understandin' when and where that particular set of information is applicable.

 

Beavah