Spinoff Re: "homosexual behavior is automatically disqualifying"

[packsaddle]

Yeah, I agree with Beavah. Sorry I didn''t notice this thread sooner but it has moved quickly. Joni, I have never seen anything close to this messed up. There are people who get PAID to handle these situations. Let them.

[eolesen]

With my ADC patch and shoulder loops on, you need to hand this one over to paid staff for a multitude of reasons. The adult sounds like a risk, and the youth could be posing a risk. Both situations are a huge liability.

[Aquila]

Merlyn, if he's in a homosexual union, then he's a "known" homosexual. He doesn't have to be the one to say so. As we all know, legal does not necessarily equate to moral.

 

The thing that concerns me the MOST about this particular situation is that the boy said he'd "experimented" with another Scout at Scout camp. I'm sure there would be legal ramifications if a SM *KNEW* about the boy's sexual choices, allowed him to tent with another boy, and that other boy came home to tell his parents about the new things Johnnie taught him.

 

To answer your question, Joni, I would NOT grant him his Eagle. He has not fulfilled the morally straight requirement.

 

Here's the quote from BSALegal:

>>● Youth Leadership

Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutings values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.

[Aquila]

Missed the last page here --

 

I agree with Beavah. Joni, you need to talk to your SE *NOW*. By bringing in the JASM, you've dumped a responsibility on him that he's likely not ready to handle. PLUS, he's a minor. I'd bet his parents will have some words ready when they find this out. Before it gets any worse, let those who are paid to deal with it do so.

[Joni4TA]

Going to the CO and/or COR is pointless guys, they are about as involved with our Troop as a newborn baby is with potty training.

 

Me? I am just a lowly Committee Member, and don't want to step on the CC's toes by going over their head. This just came to light in the last week, and I am hearing about it all third-person anyway (read heresay). I need to respect the CC enough to give them some time to do what they need to do before I start hopping up and down and demanding what take place. I will if I have to though.

 

I told the CC yesterday it's not our job at Troop level to sort this all out - we are however mandated to report - period. Somehow, getting wrapped up in all this drama, I, too, had let it slip past me, the fundamental teaching under our YPT to just report and let the higher-ups handle these kinds of situations.

 

My request for the JASM to talk to the accused Scout was simply that the MySpace page get removed, nothing more. I felt it was a good idea since he is associated with our Troop. The boys are friends - more was discussed. I had nothing to do with that discussion and do not know what they all talked about.

 

I have requested through the CC, that the Scoutmaster remove the Scout in question from Youth Leadership until this thing can get sorted out. I also suggested that we inform the Scout and his parents, at that time, of the allegation and the fact that we have no choice but to report it, true or not.

 

Aside from that, it's tearing me up inside that MY Troop, and the Boy Scouts of America that I LOVE and have been involved in for over a decade, is being drug into this mess. I am not going to lie and say I am not emotional over this. It's killing me. I don't like it, I didn't sign up for this drama, and I don't appreciate it in my life, and more importantly, in the life of the Boys I volunteered to serve!!!

[packsaddle]

Joni, I will address the sense of angst you just expressed. This situation was not of your making. You are not responsible for its creation. The response is beyond your control. Professionals must take the lead here. You merely need to step aside and offer assistance if needed.

Any personal feelings you are having, you are having out of your choice. You do control those feelings.

 

The phrase that comes to my mind is 'objective detachment'. This is what we feel when we're stitching up a cut on another person. We insert that needle and suture and watch him wince but we go ahead anyway...we are setting aside our feelings of sympathetic pain in order to do what needs to be done.

Your feelings are not going to hasten the solution to this problem and, if you let them take control, they might just hamper your interactions. Don't let that happen.

One alternative way to view this is as a learning experience, not just for you but for all the boys as well. Figure out how to make something positive out of it.

Another alternative that may or may not work is to try to find some humor somewhere in all this. Think of it as living the dream...Edgar Allan Poe's.

Come on, now...that DID bring a little smile, didn't it?

[Joni4TA]

Yes, I have to remember I am only one person. I am not an island, and I can only do so much. I can't force other volunteers to do what I think they should do, and in a time-frame I feel is right. I can't let it get to me too much either. The show must go on. I need to remember that I only control myself, and not the actions or words of others.

 

There is one positive here that I can think of. I have learned a very valuable lesson. From now on I don't care who comes to me with an "issue", I am not going to wait and pussy foot around hoping others will come to their senses, whilst allowing myself to be drawn into a bowl full of drama and gossip!

 

I thoroughly dislike drama and don't tolerate it well in my life - never got along with a whole lot of girls/women for that very reason. It really ticks me off that this is happening, and there isn't a whole lot *I* can do about it.

 

I am going to give this one week, and one week only - and then I am taking it to the DE myself - PERIOD!

 

The CC wants to set up a meeting with 2 Committee Members (one being me), the Scoutmaster, and an Asst. SM to discuss this. Frankly, I am not sure they're going to like my input because I am going to say that the meeting, in my opinion, is a waste of time - and that we shouldn't even BE discussing anything, until the DE has been informed of the allegation - PERIOD! I believe it's hemming and hawing around the task at hand, and just takes more people for another ride on the drama roller coaster - and it's flippin' irritating me even further!!

 

Is it just me? Am I being over-sensitive about this now? Or does it seem asinine to have a meeting about this at Troop level, at this point in the game?

[eolesen]

Joni, I think you need to bypass the DE and go straight to the Scout Executive... It's not a matter of stepping on toes -- it's an obligation that every adult participant has, and needs to be treated as though the Scout indicated that he was being beaten by a parent or another Scout.

 

Guide to Safe Scouting states:

 

"The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

 

 

Call anonymously if you need to, but make the call. Today.

 

Covering things up has cost the Catholic Church millions. Don't let that happen to Scouting...

[Lisabob]

Joni, I get your point about disliking the drama. I work in a male-dominated field and while I've discovered that men can be petty drama (er...) kings too, I usually have a good laugh when other women start to go on about how hard it must be to work with all those guys. Nothing like working with a bunch of other women!

 

There's little value that I can see in having this meeting with your CC and SM before bringing the SE into the loop, and every single day that the information is held on to, is another day where this "whack job and a half" can essentially pull the rug out from under you by going to the SE herself. Or worse, going to the media. Or who knows what else. Even more importantly, it is another day where either this young man in question is unjustly under a cloud of suspicion, or another day where the other boy he may have victimized at one of your scouting events is being ignored, all for the convenience and short-term comfort of a few adults who are twisting their hands instead of acting as they're bound to do. No matter how things break, waiting is not fair to the boy(s) here.

 

What I DO think there may be some value in, is having the CC and SM sit down to figure out how they're going to bring the CO into this discussion. I know you've said the COR is totally out of the loop, but that isn't likely to last once the SE is informed. And far better that troop leadership (CC and SM) present a clear and united picture to the CO - this is what is alleged to have occurred, these are the steps we are required to take, and we're taking them now; we want to keep you (CO) informed as things progress - , than that the CO gets wind of a bunch of wild rumors and calls you all up short on it. That's the kind of thing that could realistically result in the CO deciding they no longer want to be involved in sponsoring a troop at all!

 

 

[Joni4TA]

eolesen - with all due respect, I can't just pick up the phone and "make the call today." I am not the one with enough information to report about anything. My CC is.

 

I know darn well the SE will be on the phone to the DE faster than white is on rice. I know my DE personally. He will be the one I speak to. He is the one that is aware of all the other issues we've had with Miss Psycho Female Scouter - and has informed me that our Field Director would love to toss her on her ear. Maybe this is exactly what they need to do that. With any flippin luck I won't have to talk to my DE at all - and my CC will, as it should be.

 

Sorry... but if I get on the phone to the SE (someone I do not know at all) and I have no idea what the heck I am talking about, trying to tell a tale about a possible activity on a campout in my own frickin Troop (when I don't even know WHICH campout), I am going to sound like an idiot calling up there saying,

 

"So-and-so told so-and-so, and then the second so-and-so told me, that two Scouts in Troop 12345 were possibly experimenting, sexually on some campout."

 

That's all I know about this. That's all I can offer the SE. That's not enough IMHO. That's WHY the CC wants to have the meeting I just posted about, I assume???? I hope???? To bring everyone into the loop. I have to trust that the CC will do what needs to be done in a timely manner. The CC is the one who received the allegation FIRST HAND, not me. The CC talked to me about it because they know I have more years in Scouting, more training, etc. And I told the CC what I knew - that we HAD to report it, no if's and's or but's!!

 

I'll give the CC one week from today, and that is IT! At that point, I PROMISE I will make the call and sound like a complete bumbling idiot, using the script above, verbatim. ON MY HONOR, that's my promise!

[OldGreyEagle]

Joni, there is nothing wrong with calling the SE and introducing yourself and telling what you know and that you thought he should know as well. Dont elaborate where you are not certain. You have heard rumors of sexual activity at a Troop Campout and you wanted to let him know. Thats it, he takes it from there

[eolesen]

Joni, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the notification needs to take place NOW. Your unit has a huge legal (and PR) liability on your hands, and it needs to be self-disclosed immediately to the Council. This is not a situation where the committee is empowered to make any decisions.

 

If you were the parent of the other Scout that he "experimented" (a politically correct way of dressing up a predator/victim event??) with, how would you feel about another leader being hesitant to report it until a week or two later?

 

Even if it did turn out to be just heresay, you can't let something like this go without a phone call.

[packsaddle]

First, I have worked with the Army enough to appreciate the chain of command and the structure and order it provides. If Joni takes this to the DE, BSA has officially been notified and that should be sufficient. The DE would then have the responsibility to take the next step. If she takes it to the SE, that will probably work more quickly but if the DE understands the gravity of this situation, the DE will accomplish the same end. I see this as an unnecessary problem. Take it to one or the other. The effect will be the same. Just do it soon.

That "dream" thing did bring a smile, didn't it? Come on, admit it.

 

Now, I would like to mention that I have, in the past, lauded what I will characterize as the effective superiority of women, at least in the realm of my profession. Joni and Lisabob, you are not helping my argument with your praise of the 'male-dominated' work environment. I can point to literally hundreds of male whack jobs and drama-persons. Some of them are in jail. Many of the rest are called "faculty".

Or perhaps I merely...h'mmmmm....like the scenery better with all the women....thinking....

[John-in-KC]

Joni,

 

What so many others above have said. Call the Council. Ask for the SE. If you feel you must, after introducing yourself, ask him to conference in your DE.

 

If your CC or SM will not, then you lay the allegations on the table before the sun sets on another day. Lisa's words are smack on. Beavah's words are smack on, as are eolesen's and OGE's. Make the report, the SE will take it from there.

 

I reiterate: Make the call before the sun sets on another day!

[Joni4TA]

My CC brought this to me about a week ago so they could bounce it off someone they could trust. The CC wanted my opinion, my thoughts, my advice. I looked into it - what did we need to do - how do we need to do it, who needs to be involved, etc. It's like being sucker punched from the side, under the jaw, being knocked out cold and waking up on the floor in a pool of blood with a broken mandible. I "came to" in about 2 days of mulling it all over. And I got firm with the CC and let them know under no uncertain terms - we MUST report this, and ASAP! We have NO CHOICE!

 

I gave the CC all the information I could find on National's website; I have copied and pasted into email, everything I discovered. It's the same stuff you all have copied and pasted to me! Trust me, I GET IT! I have taken EVERYTHING you have all said to heart, this I promise you. I have passed on my thoughts to the CC, and given them a no-holds barred reality check. I have given a clear and concise direction - REPORT IT NOW! DO NOT WAIT!

 

I owe the CC at least an ounce of respect, to let them handle this THEIR WAY. It's THEIR first hand account, NOT MINE. They came to me as a friend. The CC is just as bothered by this as I am, I assure you. I need to give the CC the trust, the respect and the time to do what needs to be done. Not even sure I can make it a week but I am going to try.

 

I went to Council today for some other stuff & talked to my DE. He asked me about how things are going with Psycho Female Scouter, and I warned him to hang on about a week because we're all going for another roller coaster ride, and the Psycho is the ride operator again. I told him to expect to hear from our CC, and if that doesn't happen, I will be calling him myself. I also told him it's major, and it ain't gonna be pretty. So he has somewhat of a heads-up. He's expecting to hear from me in the coming week. As I said, I am hoping he hears from our CC and not me. But either way, HE WILL HEAR FROM ME! I also owe HIM that much.

 

I will keep you all updated, I promise that too. The clock is ticking. Trust me, I feel it in my head and heart, basically with my entire being! I told my dear husband today - I got a BAD BAD BAAAAAAD feeling about all this and I am anxious. That's women's intuition for ya! It's like walking around with a proverbial black cloud around my head. I told him I have reached my limit, and I feel like a volcano about to blow it!

 

One week ya'll... and that was from yesterday! By next Wednesday this is all going to land like "Little Boy" on Hiroshima - in my DE's office - one way or another.

 

If I make it that long.... that is debatable!

 

And packsaddle - in reference to the dream? How about Alice Cooper and Welcome to My Nightmare instead? LOL