Spinoff Re: "homosexual behavior is automatically disqualifying"

[OldGreyEagle]

Gee Merlyn, first you helped me, then you totaly dissed National and now you are asking open ended questions You are getting more like a scouter every day...

 

Just because a couple is "married" doesnt mean sex is going on, (see Mary and Joseph)although one would like to think so, well anyone getting ready to be married that is, well unless they agreed not to do the sex thing which is possible

 

I am still wondering how an non-avowed homosexual gets kicked out of Boy Scouts.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well OGE, that points back to my question - is a scout who enters into a legal, same-sex marriage in Mass. an "avowed homosexual"? Getting married technically isn''t a public admission of any sexual activity or even any sexual orientation.

[Lisabob]

Hoo boy Joni, I don''t envy you.

 

Question - has anyone in this whole mess asked the boy and his parents to sit down and talk about this? Here''s where I think Beavah''s advice and John''s advice come into play, as to how to do that.

 

Supposing that his myspace page includes information on activity that is either harmful or illegal (or both), this young man needs help from caring individuals before he finds himself attracting the kind of attention he doesn''t want. If his myspace page included info about under age binge drinking or drug use, one might expect caring scout leaders and CO members to (at the very least) reach out to him - as a youth, regardless of his position in scouting, which might be a lesser concern. Same ought to be true if he''s advertising a wild and unsafe sex life (gay or straight).

 

Another question - did I understand correctly that he is allegedly engaging in sexual behavior with another of your scouts? Great big Youth Protection red flags here. That worries me far more - is this allegedly taking place while under troop supervision (camp outs)? If the other scout''s parents find out about this, assuming they aren''t aware already, both you and the boy in question may have all kinds of very unpleasant questions to answer from those parents. I know if my kid came home from a scout event with tales of sexual experience (even consensual) I''d be way beyond livid - that''s not the safe environment parents expect from scouting! If I understood this part right, I think you absolutely have to act. If I''ve misunderstood, well I''ll be relieved.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

is a scout who enters into a legal, same-sex marriage in Mass. an "avowed homosexual"?

 

He''s a homosexual avowed or not!

[LongHaul]

THANK YOU LISABOB Why is anyone still talking about this boys sexual orientation? I totally agree with Beavah''s advice and hope some adult will have a long sit down wit this boy BUT the alegation of sexual activity and "experimentation" ON A CAMPOUT puts this in a totally different court. Is it CO policy to ignor sexual activity on campouts? Is it troop policy to ignor sexual activity on campouts? Is it CO/Troop policy to say "As long as I don''t actually see it it''s OK my us?" Just what does it take for adults in this unit to stop and ask "What actually happened on this campout?"

LongHaul

[GernBlansten]

avow

Main Entry: avow

Pronunciation: \ə-ˈvau̇\

Function: transitive verb

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French avuer, avouer, from Latin advocare

Date: 14th century

1 : to declare assuredly

2 : to declare openly, bluntly, and without shame

 

Is he kicked out if he declares quietly, meekly, and with shame? He would not be avowed.

 

Of course, any sexual activity on camp outs is mega taboo. It should be investigated and pushed up the YPT chain if suspicions are warranted. Let the pros handle it.

 

I''m not sure these kids understand the projection of the MySpace webspaces. I''ve heard several job offers rescinded when potential employers take 5 minutes to search MySpace. A friend of mine who is not very technical, asked me to help her create a MySpace. She had a bunch of pictures from a recent vacation to Italy she wanted uploaded. As I browsed them, I noticed most of the shots were restaurant pix with lots of empty beer bottles on the tables, a jovial clutch of friends crouched around the tables. I said, do you really want these on the internet? She said, sure, she wasn''t drinking, it was her friends. She really doesn''t drink at all. But the association was there. It just didn''t sink in.

[eolesen]

Gern writes: "That scouter who betrayed his confidence should revisit the scout law. A scout is trustworthy and loyal."

 

Yes, but being trustworthy does not amount to attorney/client privilege. Complying with YPT and other safety requirements (or even state law in some cases) has to take priority.

 

Keeping the confidence does nothing to address the potential risk that this Scout could molest a younger Scout.

 

Engaging in sexual contact on a campout? Immediate expulsion. I don't care if they're 18 & 19 year old Venturing Scouts who are male and female -and- of the legal age of consent. The fact is that the behavior is inappropriate for Scouting.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[GernBlansten]

I agree. YPT must take precidence. But in my reading at first looked like the scout confided in the scouter and the scouter went running to the CC without the scouter having knowledge of the possible scout on scout contact.

[LongHaul]

Gern,

I agree, I came into this thread late and as I was reading over page one I was composing my reply along "Give the Boy a chance" "Don''t ask and tell him not to tell" but when I got to the middle of page two >>Whatever a Boy Scout reveals to a Scouter, however - is probably not deniable. Though there are some issues with this Scouter''''s motivations and intentions, her information does appear to have some validity. In addition, this female Scouter is a "MySpace friend" to the Scout as well. The Scouter claims the Scout told her about "experimentation" that was happening at a campout and that the boy is or was dating another Scout! Again, this could all be heresay - I am considering the source, and the source is a whack job and a half!!!!

[Beavah]

Yah, Holy Smoke! I confess to having missed the accusation in Joni''s longer message about youth-on-youth sex at a campout.

 

Kudos to LongHaul and others for catching it. Unfortunately, Joni, he and Lisabob and others are right - that puts this in a very different space, eh?

 

Your committee has received a credible report of a YP issue and a PR disaster. Everything else halts and you follow the procedures established by your CO and the BSA to investigate and respond. Delicately, respectfully, and firmly.

 

Get help from professionals, now. Sprint, don''t run, to your IH/COR and your Scout Executive.

 

Beavah

 

[Joni4TA]

Ok, I have to explain this "allegation" came from a very non-credible source. (I think I posted that earlier, but didn''t get into all the drama involved - so here goes).

 

This female Scouter has been reported HERSELF for YP issues, she acts like she''s 15, has no respect for spacial & personal physical boundaries, is the touchy-feely type, etc. She makes young teenage boys with testosterone, feel uncomfortable around her. My son has come straight out and said he thinks she acts like a "ho." She has come straight up to our brand new DE, fresh out of college and new to Scouting - and she flat out accused HIM of being gay and asked him if he was - AND this psycho is practically stalking our Scoutmaster because she wants to engage in an extra-marital affair with him! (She has been sounding off like a siren to anyone who will listen, and admits to the whole world (new DE included) that she enjoys having affairs with married men.) Yes, she is married herself though!

 

She''s even solicited boys in our Troop to write statements about the Scoutmaster and his wife having any sort of verbal disagreements on Scout events because she wants the Scoutmaster''s wife banned from all BSA functions because of temper (so she can weasel in and SEE him herself!!!). If you ask me, the Scoutmasters wife, who is also one of our Committee Members, is dealing with a predator in this psycho female Scouter, and no wonder she feels insecure about it! This female Scouter is not even involved in our Troop though - she''s doing all this as a Cub Scouter in a Pack, in another locality for crying out loud! Strangely enough, she finds legitimate reasons to come to our town and get closer to our Troop.

 

Our Troop Committee, because of all the crazy things this female Scouter has done, has met, and all agreed she can have absolutely NOTHING to do with our Troop, no dealings with, and no association with us whatsoever, indefinitely. She was told this about 8 months ago, and was absolutely furious!

 

Her backlash has been complete disregard for our Committee''s decision. She shows up at our meeting place, has since convinced the District Commish that she should be our Unit Commisioner, and was trying to convince our Committee Chair that she NEEDED to be at our Troop meetings, AND Committee meetings because it was "her job", and that she would be coming, how we needed to work with her on this, and how we, the Committee should be totally OK with her presence, as long as no one told the Scoutmaster''s wife (which we just put our foot down and said Not just NO - but NEVER!) She was removed as our UC as soon as we she was appointed and started harrassing us again. District has asked us to basically keep a record of all of it. I believe they are working on a case to remove her. But she''s slick.... she has already been reported by 2 of our Boy Scouts for trying to engage them in inappropriate conversations regarding her nude sunbathing preference, and speaking with teenage Scouts with sexual undertones, inuendoes, etc.

 

As I said, she is a whack-job and a half, has NEVER attended ANY of our campouts and would not know one thing or the other about any alleged "experimentation" on any campouts. In fact, the accusation she made sounds proposterous and she can''t seem to back it with any facts, so it''s essentially all heresay. It seems like she just picked a couple Scouts from our Troop out of the blue and said to herself, "Oh one of them MIGHT be gay, so I am going to accuse them BOTH of doing something on the Troop campouts."

 

The one boy she is making the accusations about, she has named, but refuses to own up and tell us who the other boy might be or give specifics about the truth. So in my opinion, this woman has very little credibility.

 

I don''t want to take any chances with gay Scouts or YPT issues either, BELIEVE ME! But I trust this woman''s word like I''d trust Osama Bin Laden.

 

My problem with all of it is, even with psycho accusers, you CAN sometimes find an ounce of truth in their words. I am struggling to find the truth, and yes I talked to my son about it in general capacity. He said he wasn''t all that close to this accused Boy Scout, but told me who was. I did talk to THAT boy, who is our JASM. And our JASM talked to the accused gay Scout. I believe he may have convinced the accused gay Scout to delete the MySpace page, and the JASM told me the boy is very upset because he feels completely used and betrayed by the Psycho Female Scouter! Who can blame him!?!?! I don''t know what he told her, confided in her or whatever. But as I said... an ounce of truth is about all I can believe comes out of her mouth.

 

In full spectrum, this whole darn thing is a flipping mess and I can constantly find this psycho female Scouter in the middle of it ALL, nearly every single time our Troop is involved in a crisis of some kind - there this woman is, dead center.

 

It''s just a total flipping insane hosed-up soap opera drama! One that I didn''t ask for (certainly) when I put my application in to be an Adult Member of this Troop. I am just trying to muddle through the mess, one day at a time, and every day remind myself that this is for the boys, and no one else, and try to work in my total capacity to make sure the boys have a safe, sound, and enjoyable Scouting experience. **SIGH**

[LongHaul]

I still say you need to protect yourself and the unit and put this thru channels. I would talk with the COR and try and have this woman banned from contact with your unit. Let her find another unit to bless with her time. LongHaul

[scoutldr]

Let me say this with kindness...determining which sources are "credible" is NOT your business and will land you in hot water. You do not have that authority. Your job is to discuss the YP matter with your SE (no one else at Council...just the SE) and turn it over to him/her. If the lady is indeed a crack-pot, the SE probably already knows her.

[OldGreyEagle]

There is a saying I have often heard, it has many variations, the best I think is, "Even a blind squirrel finds some nuts". She may be a whack job and a half, but even so, her accusations need to be investigated even if for no other reason than to brand her a liar. Then again, if there is truth, you did the right thing

[Beavah]

Yah, Joni... remind me of what your position is in the troop? I think I must have missed that, too.

 

All this drama should be the exclusive realm of the SM, CC, COR, IH, and SE. Nobody else. This needs calm, firm adult professionalism. Tasking a youth member JASM to go talk with this accused boy is pretty poor judgment, and only ups the drama.

 

If the unit owners (COR & IH) have decided this woman is not welcome, then if she shows up the SM is instructed to call law enforcement and have her removed. Period. Doesn''t matter what the BSA says or thinks, it''s their unit, their property, their responsibility. Nobody else need be involved, save the CC and SM making a generic announcement to all of the kids and families saying that because of "inappropriate behavior" Mrs. Jones is not welcome at any scouting events and kids should have no contact with her. If da CO is a church or other organization with trained professional staff, they *might* take additional steps to get her help as well. Not your problem though.

 

Provide behavior documentation at your leisure to your SE so that they can make an informed decision about whether to continue her BSA registration.

 

As for her accusations against the youth, once again you notify the COR & IH and the SE, and you let them do what they have to do. The SM and perhaps a professional counselor might then talk with the boy and his parents, and then take things where they need to take things both to protect the boy and his peers in the troop. The family of the boy likely has an excellent defamation case against this woman.

 

These things are not "amateur hour" issues. They are not good candidates for Youth Leadership method. You bring in the big professional guns and you step out of the firing zone. That''s how you avoid and defuse "drama". Drama can only continue while it generates energy and spreads to different people. You need competent folks to take charge of it.

 

Beavah