SpiralScouts offer inclusive programs.

[DanKroh]

Hey Ed,

 

If the person making the public prayer before the school football game happens to be an Asatru and starts it with "Oh great and all-powerful Thor..." would you still support their right to public prayer?

 

anyone else get deja vu of Pong when reading the last page or so of this thread? Or Steve Martin from Roxanne.... hypnotic, isn''t it?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Oh, now I see. My reference to Madison was not about how it applies more "widely" in the sense of federal vs. state governments, but that the first amendment does not merely prohibit the federal government from creating a national church. Madison, for example, argued that it prohibited Congress from hiring chaplains. My remark was aimed at people who try to say that the first amendment only prohibits the creation of a state church, so official school prayers are not in violation of the first amendment. The first amendment is not that narrow in scope.

 

 

[edit by Dept. of Redundancy Dept.](This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[OldGreyEagle]

If silent prayer is allowed anywhere, then it follows that silent prayer is allowed in a public high school.

 

I think the issue all along has been public prayer.

 

I wonder if the public high school announcer of a football game invoked Allah to keep all the participants of the game safe would no comment be made? If at the end of the school announcements, a prayer was offered to Gaia, would that pass as fine?

 

If a speaker at a commencement exercise said a prayer, and thanked Jesus as part of a speech representing that persons'' thoughts and feelings, then that speech, prayer and mention of God is covered under the first amendment and is protected.

[acco40]

Maybe it's just me but public prayer outside of a religious institution makes me uncomfortable. As Scoutmaster, I worked arranging the details to three Eagle Courts of Honor this year so far. None were held inside a church, temple, mosque, etc. At each one, the families of the Eagle Scout asked me to prepare an invocation and benediction (they wanted me to write it) but wanted the Priest/Minister of the church they attended to verbalize the invocation and benediction. At each ECOH, they did not "follow script" and instead gave their own invocation and benediction. That, in and of itself, did not bother me. Afterall, these were "professional" religious men and had much more experience than I at these things. However, each prayed to Jesus Christ as opposed to God. That upset me. That made it non-denominational. I firmly believe that Scouting should be non-denominational in its delivery and execution. I know not all agree. Our troop is sponsored by an Episcopal Church and to my knowledge no troop members are Episcopalians. Most, but not all of our members are Christians. I'm just much more comfortable having non-denominational prayer at Scouting events and "non-denominational" statements at public schools along the line of "I hope nobody gets hurt." Legality aside, I think it is rude to make others uncomfortable in a public setting and I think organized prayer by a school, teacher, etc. has the potential to do that.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[evmori]

I think the issue all along has been public prayer.

 

Bingo! Thank you OGE! The obvious impaired haven''t picked up on that.

 

If the person making the public prayer before the school football game happens to be an Asatru and starts it with "Oh great and all-powerful Thor..." would you still support their right to public prayer?

 

Yes I would.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Venividi]

Acco40,

I like your thoughts. It brings to mind that we here all frequently recite "...friendly, courteous, kind, ...".

 

FRIENDLY -He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

COURTEOUS -He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

KIND -He treats others as he wants to be treated.

REVERENT -He respects the beliefs of others.

(definitions abridged for brevity).

 

Sometimes it is worth reflecting on these, and then considering how are thoughts and actions should be affected by them.

[GernBlansten]

Ed, Merlyn is right. You are not connecting.

Let me see if I can frame this a bit clearer.

It isn''t about silent prayer, you can pray in school vocally too. You are protected by the 1st Amendment on that. Personal prayer whether silent or vocal is protected. Its when you use the resources of the government to project your prayer is where the line is drawn. So, your statement that "Prayer in school is not allowed" is false. Prayer in school is allowed. Using the school to enjoin students or broadcast your prayer is not. For me this is a simple concept to understand. I hope I have clarified it for you.

[Trevorum]

More simply put:

 

Students in public schools have the right to pray at any time, silently or aloud (as long as they do not disrupt lessons, etc.).

 

However, the school (ie, the Government) may NOT choose the prayer or the deity or the time or the place.(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[scottteng]

Can we ever get past the "my way or the highway" thinking. I would have no problem with a local school setting up a course in comparative religion and then contacting every religious organization within the school''s boundaries and inviting an authorized person from each to come in for one class session to explain their religion. My God is a logical and personal God and able to persuade on his own. He does not require indoctrination or any prerequisites. All are welcome and all points of view are welcome. I have no problem with any and all prayers whether they be to Thor or to the rock in my back yard or to the higher power. I actually have no problem with BSA adopting religious guidelines akin to the AA higher power concept. I personally do not have a problem with someone who says God prove yourself to me like a true agnostic. One of the best scout Sunday services I ever attended was at a local Jewish synagogue with a rabbi that had considerable scouting experience fielding questions from cub scouts. I''ll leave the questions to your imagination most stemmed from the cub''s Sunday school instruction.

[evmori]

So a student in a public school can walk down the hall reciting the 23rd Psalm for all to hear & will not be in violation of anything? I find that hard to believe.

 

(edited for editing purposes)

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Aquila]

I''m glad to see Spiral Scouts -- their existence will help to weed out those who don''t really believe in the Boy Scout principles, but want the "experience". They won''t become competition for BSA; instead, having that alternative available makes BSA better because it leaves as members those who agree with Scouting''s values. Some of the posters here sound like they may be a better fit for SS, and might want to transfer over and help them out.

 

AHG, on the other hand, is siphoning off the TOP of GSUSA, taking girls from families who cannot morally stomach the policies of GSUSA national. They will weaken GSUSA; to which I say more power to them.

[Aquila]

Acco, it''s the EAGLE SCOUT''s program. If I''m invited to an Eagle Ceremony at a temple or church, I fully expect the program to reflect the Scout''s interpretation of reverent. If I know the Scout to be involved in something that is offensive to me, I don''t have to go.

 

Watering down to a ''higher power'' practices equal-opportunity offensiveness. Only those who don''t know a personal God would find it acceptable.

 

The school-prayer argument is fruitless to those who believe our country is ecumenical. When 85% of the nation identifies itself as subscribing to Judeo-Christian ethics, it is not incomprehensible that an entity paid for by the taxes of those 85% would reflect their values.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

So a student in a public school can walk down the hall reciting the 23rd Psalm for all to hear & will not be in violation of anything?

 

Assuming the school doesn''t have some kind of blanket draconian rule against talking in the hall, sure.

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

Why? Students have free speech rights.

[evmori]

And the difference between a student walking down the hall of a public school reciting the 23rd Psalm & a student reciting the 23rd Psalm over the PA system during morning announcements is ??????????

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[GernBlansten]

Ed,

Because with the PA, the students are compelled to sit quietly and listen to it by the authorities.