SpiralScouts offer inclusive programs.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

I don''t have specifics but prayer isn''t allowed in public schools.

 

Wrong Ed. I and many others have tried to explain this to you, but you can''t learn.

 

Students can pray in public school, Ed.

 

It was a long time ago, then someone got offended, sued & now there is no prayer in schools.

 

Wrong Ed. As you say, you don''t have "specifics." You don''t even have facts.

 

TheScout writes:

Yes, it would be a shame for public schools to promote morality.

 

Promoting prayer has nothing to do with promoting morality. Do you want unelected school bureaucrats to decide what prayers your kids are to recite? If so, why on Earth do you want such a thing?

[evmori]

Ah! So if a public high school student wants to say a prayer as part of their commencement speech they can do that? And if the the student announcer at a public high school football game wants to say a prayer over the loudspeaker before the start of the game they can? And if the public high school student presenting the morning announcements over the PA system to the entire school wants to close with a prayer, they can?

 

I learn fine, Merlyn. I''m not the one who is learning impaired.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gonzo1]

Ed,

I''ve said for a long time that one way to kinda get around the school prayer thing is to have the announcer say: "I wish to now quote from the Congressional Record" and then actually quote a prayer that had been previously prayed in Congress.

 

Ed, I also think it was Madelyn Murray O''Hare who got her nose out of joint about the school prayer thing. Personally, I have no problem with non-denominational prayer in school.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I guess I''d be OK with group prayer in school as long as it was my prayer.

 

A watered down, non-denominational prayer isn''t sufficiently powerful enough to correct the moral deviations of today''s youth.

 

Perhaps we are better to leave praying to the individual.

 

So is the claim that there is no prayer in school a canard?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

No Ed, you really can''t learn things. If you could, you''d already know which one of the three cases you present would allow prayer, and which two would not, and why.

 

Gonzo1, why do you think public schools ought to teach children religion?

[evmori]

Enlighten us Merlyn, because all three I listed are student led!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, I thought you said you learn fine. So why don''t you know?

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

I''m OK with schools teaching "world religions" as much as you''re (probably) OK with schools teaching evolution.

 

You don''t believe in God, I don''t believe we crept onto land from the sea or evolved from apes.

 

If evolution is taught then in my opinion, world religion should be taught.

 

I think it''s one thing to pray before a football game and pray that no one gets injured, I don''t believe in praying for a win. I am opposed to a teacher in public schools teaching his/her specific practices/denomination/etc. related to the teacher''s own belief system, but rather something like Catholics believe X, Jewish people believe Y, Pentocostals believe Z, Mormons believe N, and so on.

 

I am otherwise opposed to teaching evolution and other left leaning non-sense like global warming (sorry Packsaddle).

 

I''d really prefer to not discuss much more with you, I don''t want to upset you.

 

G

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well Gonzo1, I''m all in favor of teaching about "world religions", but you also seem to think that having children pray as a group is somehow teaching about world religions. It isn''t, that''s conducting religious rituals, which is entirely different.

[evmori]

Maybe, Merlyn, you are just a poor teacher! All three examples are student led at a public high school event or in a public high school.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

No Ed, I and many others have tried to tell you about the legal issues around prayer in public schools, and you keep repeating the same false things long after you''ve been shown to be wrong numerous times.

[LongHaul]

Merlyn writes >>Judges know that the phrase "separation of church and state" does not occur in the constitution, but they also know that the first amendment is not limited to forbidding a national church. If it was meant to only prohibit the formation of a national church, it would have said that. It doesnt.

[Lisabob]

Generally I find that this sort of discussion is pretty fruitless, as people who want to believe something are just going to go right on believing it even when the evidence shows that they are wrong. So I''ve stayed out. But two things are bugging me with regard to this debate/discussion.

 

1) What the heck does all of this "prayer in public schools" stuff have to do with spiral scouts, the apparent original topic of the thread?

 

2) The other day I had a surprising conversation with a scout about his religious beliefs. He''d had a problem with a MBC at summer camp, who started off the session for the space exploration MB by asking each boy in the group what his religion was. This boy told the MBC he didn''t belong to any organized religious group and (according to the scout), the MBC spent most of the rest of the week picking on him for being an atheist. So the boy stopped going to the classes because he felt bad. And he wanted to know whether I thought he was really an atheist, because he wasn''t sure! As it turns out, the boy made the assumption that one could only consider oneself a member of a religion if one also accepts a literal interpretation of that religion''s sacred text, which he felt he could not do. Consequently, he didn''t know what to call himself.

 

All of this came up when I asked the boy why he no longer seemed interested in finishing the space exploration badge! Too bad he felt unwelcome in a class on ROCKET BUILDING (not religion), because the MBC in question didn''t have the common sense to talk about religion in a more appropriate context, nor did he have the ability to engage in a more nuanced understanding of religion. Here this boy had some deep, serious questions but all he got in return was "you''re an atheist." It would have been better if the MBC had stuck to something he (presumably) knew about - like the space exploration merit badge.

 

So, constitutional interpretation issues aside: my problem with imposing religion in diverse group settings is that it lends itself to abuse and clumsiness. It tends to result in over-simplification and an us-them mentality. If an individual wants to engage in private religious rituals of most sorts, I''m perfectly ok with that. If someone asks "what are you doing" then I think it''s appropriate to have a conversation about religious practice and beliefs. I''m all for a class on comparative world religions in middle or high school, and by the way the courts have never said that such a class is unconstitutional. But when an individual in a position of power wants to impose religious practices (and by extention, belief) on everyone else, it seems to me it causes more problems than it solves.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The first amendment didn''t apply at all to the states until the 14th amendment and subsequent incorporation rulings. But even ignoring that, James Madison, the guy who actually WROTE the first amendment, had said it covers more than just a prohibition against a national church.

[DanKroh]

Hey Lisabob,

 

In case anyone hasn''t told you this lately, you are a totally class act.

 

Nicely said.