mk9750 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 OGE, If you're starting the movement to create Eagle Cum Laude, etc., count me in! I'll bet some might say that that is what Palms are for, but I think you mean honoring a Scout who has exceeded minimum requirements on his way to Eagle. for example, w e have one boy in our Troop that earned his required MBs and the rest were basketry, metel working, etc. He certainly deserves to be Eagle. But we have another boy who did his required, plus all of the optional required, and for electives did Fish and Wildlife Mgt., Law, Medicine, Veterinary Medicine, etc. In addition to fulfilling his minimum leadership role, he serves on Council JLT staff for 3 years, the last as SPL. He designed his project so that it continues to this day, 4 years later, making him come home from college reguarly to keep his project up to date. doesn't this guy deserve a distinction even greater than Eagle? You put the committee together, I'll serve. Ed, Without taking the time to reread all of the posts, my impresion of your scenerio is that the boy is coming back just short of his 18th birthday. this wouldn't leave any time to observe the boy within the Troop, so some other criteria for deciding the issue of Scout Spirit would have to be used. I see this as a great oportunity. As Scouters, the best evidence we have that the influence we, and Scouting, have been on the youth we serve is to see that they have "walked the walk" of Scouting in their every day life. Let's face it: It's most common to see a boy behave like a Scout during a Scout event. If an active Scout carries his Scout character with him outside of Scouting, we have reason to be proud. If an INACTIVE Scout acts like a Scout, then we've really done our job, as I see it. And if that young man has completed all of the other requirements for Eagle, I think it's time to stoke up a Board of Review, and then most likely a Court of Honor. I respect your desire to keep the ranks of Eagle Scouts free of the slackers. But I don't think it's fair to assume that a boy who hasn't come to meetings is a slacker. And one more qwuestion - Did this boy let his registration lapse? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red feather Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Advancement requirements are neither the min or are they max. They are THE requirements. Admittedly some scouts show scout spirit in an open way for all to see and some show the spirit in a very personal way. Both ways are correct... they have the spirit. The scouts that I am involved with I see both in the scouting arena and out of the scout arena. If a scout is not active in the meetings but is holding the scout spirit close in the public arena, scout spirit is there and part of thier lives whether they recognize it or not. If this hypothetical scout has shown the spirit in the public arena then the requirement is fulfilled. Some Eagles soar, some flap. But they are all Eagles. yis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 OGE, Sorry it took so long to get back. I'm in Rochester, NY. Unexpected trip to my son's college. The point I'm trying to make is Scout Spirit shoudn't just be "signed off". It is very important and should be not takene lightly. I know attendance isn't a requirement. But I do feel committment by the Scout to the program is. And lack of attendance CAN show lack of committment. I would never prevent a Scout who has completed the requirements from earning his Eagle unless he came right out and said "I want my Eagle because it looks good on a college application". If that was the case, I would have to take a hard look at Scout Spirit. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Everyone who understands that requirement #2 does not include the word commitment raise your right hand in the scout sign. Good! except for one it appears unanimous. Anyone who read any post in this thread saying that the scout should just be signed off and not have to fulfill requirement #2 drop your arm. GOOD! All hands still raised in the scout sign. So Ed what is your point, and is this hypothetical or not, you seem to flip flop back and forth. Bob White Sorry everyone, you can put your hands down now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Ok, So its ok not to require more than the minimum from a scout for advancement right Ed? So any troop not requiring more than the minimum is doing ok and is not doing the program or the boy a dis-service? Because just a few days ago you said they were. AND, no one ever said Scout Spirit was to be signed off as a matter of course, the discussion was always that the scout meet, not exceed the requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 2, 2003 Author Share Posted March 2, 2003 Live your life by the Scout Oat & Law. The Scout Law includes the word Loyal. How is a Scout loyal to the Troop by being absent witout a good reason for an etended period of time? OGE, No I haven't reversed my position and yes if a Scout meets the minimum requirements he can earnd hi Eagle. mk9750, The period of time was between registration times. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 So far Ed you have written the situation I am refering to is 100 % hypothetical. and Oh, by the way, you still haven't answered my question about why you think this hypothetical situation is real? and And my Scoutmaster(me)has no hang-ups except the ones you seem to think I have So what is the deal Ed? You keep changing things on us, is this about a "Hypothetical Situation" or is this you and a scout in the unit you serve? Also you wrote, I know attendance does not equal Scout Spirit and How is a Scout loyal to the Troop by being absent witout a good reason for an etended period of time? Well Ed, if attendance does not equal Scout Spirit, then lack of attendance cannot equal lack of Scout Spirit. Either they are related or they are not, and everyone seems to agree with your statement that they are not. How does the scout use loyal in his everyday life if you aren't seeing it in his scouting attendance. That's a fair question for you to ask. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I guess this is why George Schultz never would answer hypothetical questions: 1. Being hypothetical, there is no solid basis in reality (no real scout, in this case) and hypothetical can change at any time, depending on each person's interpretation. 2. Having no substance, you can't beat them to death. Although we're trying really hard, that last one is kind of too bad. Ed, I would like to address an earlier statement, "I want my Eagle because it looks good on a college application.." that you mention as evidence for denying the Eagle rank. I have heard such statements in the past but when I questioned the scout further, there was always more to their motives. How many times has any young man been thoughtless in his words? When I apply that question to myself the answer is sobering. Yet I know that for most young men (and for me), thoughtless words can distract from other more worthy characteristics and motives. Sometimes those better characteristics take a little coaxing from those of us who are somewhat flawed superficially. I wonder what an Eagle board would do if they heard this in response to one of their questions? I suspect that if that was the only reason that the boy gave for deserving Eagle, they would have some trouble with it as well. However, as the boy's leader I expect to see this kind of thing long before that time. On the question of loyalty, I understand what you mean when you link this to troop attendance or support. However, I view loyalty (and the other points) as applying throughout the boy's life, outside the troop as well. To avoid judging him too harshly, I would need to understand his application of the law in his whole life. I would also need to examine the possibility that the troop, in some way, had failed him - perhaps in his mind. Perhaps he, too, has an issue with loyalty. There is no way to address this in a hypothetical case. There are a few things I don't see eye-to-eye with Bob White on, but I think this is where simply adhering to the regulations as written takes some of these gray areas off our shoulders. At least I think that is part of what they are intended to do. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I just got off of the hypothetical phone with this invisible hypothetical ex-scout. He has informed me since his Scout Spirit is so bad he is going to give up on HIS (well okay maybe the scoutmasters) Eagle and spend his time carousing, marauding, piliging and plundering. Seems to me that the BSA failed this young man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 packsaddle, I have been on Eagle boards where the candidate answered the question "Why do you want to be an Eagle Scout?" with "It looks good on a college appliaction". This candidate was denied his Eagle by the board mainly because of that answer. Bob, Purely hypothetical. Not my Troop. I did state attendance does not equal Scout Spirit. However, it is one of the compononts of Scout Spirit. And also a componont of being loyal to the Troop. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 "I did state attendance does not equal Scout Spirit. However, it is one of the compononts of Scout Spirit. And also a componont of being loyal to the Troop." Gee I'm sorry Ed, cause I've looked everywhere I can think of; the Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster Handbook, The Advancement Requirements handbook, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual, The Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training syllabus, The Troop Committee Guidebook, even the Eagle Scout Application and, (I'll bet you already know where this is going) I cannot find a single reference to any of the points you made. Please help us all by identifying the BSA source (other than your opinion) where the following points are made. 1)Attendance is a component of Scout Spirit. 2)A scout must prove loyalty to his troop in order to advance. If the Boy Scout Handbook doesn't require it then you can't require it. It's just that simple. Seriously Ed, I understand that change is difficult and old habits are tough to break, but your present position on this topic would improperly interfere with a boy's advancement and it violates the policies of the BSA. For the sake of the scouts you serve you need to come into compliance with the advancement policies and the current methods of scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Bob, OK. Show me where in any BSA publication where it says attendance is not part of Scout Spirit. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Geez you still haven't read the Boy Scout Handbook yet have you. Among all the references I gave you is the one key statement, that the best judge of a boy's Scout Spirit is the Scout himself. He knows if he has incorporated the Oath and Law into his life and can tell you how. But Ed you have to take the time to talk to the scout not just judge him by your own pet peeves. What you are doing is wrong, unscoutlike and a violation of advancemt policies. For pete's sake Ed, READ the Boy Scout Handbook sometime. (Try taking the chip off your shoulder as you read it.) Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Bob, I have read the Scout Handbook. Many times. I'll ask again - Where does it say attendance is not part of Scout Spirit? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Read it again ED, and as you do remind yourself that you cannot add to the requirements listed in the handbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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