mk9750 Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Ed, Given the parameters of your hypothetical, I would be forced to say that I would sign him off. But again, the only way to tell for sure he has met his obligation to live by the Scout Oath and Scout Law is to speak with him and get examples / evidence of doing so. If he can, that makes his attendance either irrelevent, or at the very most, a minor consideration in the overall spectrum of "Scout Spirit". If the only thing one has to base a boy's effort at living up to his Oath is attendence, then it is the adult half of the Scoutmaster conference that isn't doing his job completely. I have read so many great posts from you, and think I know for certain that you value both the program and the rank. I cannot imagine you sitting in a Scoutmaster conference in this situation and basing the decision soley on his atendance. Say it ain't so! And all this comes from someone who feels his low moment in the program is voting yes at an Eagle Board of Review for a boy I don't feel lived up to his obligation to live by the Oath and Law. his attendance was fine, and he met all of the "hard" requirements. But to this day (and this happened 6 years ago), I am ashamed I let others on the Board convince me to go against my conscience on that one. There were far too many known examples of un - Scout like behavior to justify the Board's decision that he should be an Eagle. My point is, I take this issue of Scout Spirit VERY, VERY seriously. And I can't imagine myself denying a boy Eagle (or any other rank) in your hypothetical. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Young Blood, I apreceiate your enthusiasm for the program and I understand that you feel some of the standards are not what you want them to be. But understand that there are millions of members in the BSA and no matter what the rules, policies and methods are at any given time they will never be to everyone's liking. For the sake of the scouts you serve you will need to change if you are to be an effective leader. You cannot wait for the program to change to how you want things done. You need to follow the current program methods and policies in order for the scouts you come in contact with to have a quality scouting experience . You cannot add conditions to the requirements to advancement no matter how well intentioned they are. When it comes to Uniform, Youth Protection, and Advancement your personal opinions do not matter. You are required to follow the policies of the BSA, and you signed a written agreement on your adult application that says you will. Ed, How did the hypothetical scout manage to be able to complete all his requirements EXCEPT Scout Spirit and then leave? Was the troop's adult leadership in a hypothetical coma? Didn't any one know what this scout was doing or where he was on advancement? Did no one know anything about him as a person outside of troop meetings? Did the hypothetical leaders normally wait until the end of the eagle advancement to find out what kind of person this boy is? To say he didn't come for awhile because he didn't want to, says nothing about his use of the Oath and Law and it says a lot about the quality (or more the lack of quality) of the troop meetings. Some hypothetical leader needs to hypothetically sit down and hold a hypothetical conversation with the hypothetical scout. Hypothetically speaking, Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungBlood Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Bob, I don't understand the intention of your post towards me. I never once said that I was going to or expected anyone to change requirements not published by BSA. Nor have I never not followed BSA policies or methods. I am somewhat offended and dumbstruck as to how you came to the conclusion that I was not following BSA policies and or methods and that I needed to change!(This message has been edited by YoungBlood) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 It was your concern over what you 'feel' the program should require as opposed to what it does require, as well as your post in another string where you added a condition to the swimming requirement. These are red flags to a trainer when we hear it coming from such a new leader. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungBlood Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 There is a difference between what someone may feel the program should do and someone who doesn't follow the program. I have always followed the program and will always do so. As for the swimming requirement I do not believe I am adding to it and I stand by that. It is what I was taught at Northeast Region National Camping School. If it is any consolation, the aquatics director at the Northeast Region Camping School was one of the people who wrote the old requirements and swimming handbook.(This message has been edited by YoungBlood) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I suppose, as they say on STNG, resistance is futile. As amazed as I am about this, I agree with Bob White on this 'hypothetical' question. Or at least I think I do (You'll let me know if I'm wrong, won't you BW, I know I can count on that). While it might seem that the regulations leave little room for judgement, there actually is a tremendous need for good judgement and one way to use such is to really know the scout. By the time a boy attains Life, the adult leadership should know him quite well. I suppose this is easier in smaller troops but it should apply everywhere. Without evidence to the contrary, I would have to assume that a returning scout is sincere in his wish and I would work to help him achieve his goals. Ultimately the Eagle Board would provide a final answer. Ahem, I probably would, however, give him a pretty good lecture about waiting until the last minute...not that I ever do that...nooooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Bob, Maybe you don't understand ny point. There is nothing wrong with the leadership in the Troop. The Troop has a lot of active Scouts and lots of activities. The hypothetical Scout earned Life then just decided he didn't want to go to Scouts anymore. Then after he looked over his records he realized all he had to do for Eagle was complete his project & have his SM signoff on his Scout Spirit. Would you signoff on this Scout Scout Spirit? How did he earn all his requirements? By completing them. Simple answer, huh? No the Troop leadership wasn't in a coma. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Gee Ed, are you sure we are talking about a hypothetical scout? Because the troop sounds like it might be real. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I was blessed/cursed with this ability to see both sides of an argument. I try to weigh every issue on its merits. Guess I should see if the State Department has any Diplomat openings available, huh? If going strictly by the rules (which you should) and the boy has been gone for a couple of years and then decides he wants to get his Eagle, he should if he can prove Scout Spirit in his daily life. I do see the problem that some have of a kid who leaves an excellent program because he doesn't like peer pressure over wearing a dorky uniform or because he got his drivers liscense or a girlfriend or sports or just changing interests. One day he realizes (parents goading) that he is almost out of time, he decides just maybe he should go ahead and get that Eagle because it will look good to a college or on a resume. Is he persuing the Eagle for the right reasons or for the wrong reasons? Does he want it because it was the next logical step in his advancement to a program he believed in and was loyal to, or because it will help him get ahead materially? If his intentions are not "pure", he can tell his SM and BOR anything they want to hear. Since he has been gone for a few years and out of contact, all they will know is what he tells them. Scouts are people too. While they stand a much better chance of becoming good citizens who make ethical choices and have good leadership skills, they are still people with failings.....some known and some unknown. One of my best friends from church and school was a very active scout as was his brother and dad. He earned his Eagle. During his scouting years, I know the things he did like riding around with his buddies in cars and shooting out peoples house and car windows with slingshots. Overall, he was a very good kid who I saw live the Scout oath and law, but went thru a short lived "stage" in his teen years. What his minister and scout leaders saw was the good socially acceptable side he lived in front of them. What I saw being a close friend was both the good and bad side. Following the rules and having a conference with my friend, you would consider that he had Scout Spirit and deserved his Eagle. But not knowing what was going on for the years he stepped out of scouting, do you "really" know what his Scout Spirit was? If you knew what he had done, would you think he should get his Eagle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 If all that was left for a scout to do to earn Eagle after being away for a year or more was do his project, then that means he earned his 21 merit badges, served in his leadership position and had demonstrated adequate scout spirit for each rank up to and including Life. After earning Life he still has a passle of merit badges to earn (i dont have the number as i am not close to a handbook here in the Hotel Syracuse). To earn the merit badges he has to show some scout spitit just to complete them. Then he drops out, and comes back to finish his project. If he can get it done, he has shown the correct scout spirit to get Eagle. Remember, on his Eagle application the scout has to list a number of references. If scout spirit is an issue with you contact the references and talk to them. (I think you can do that) To tell the scout he isnt welcome back, or that to get Eagle he has to jump through hoops forged by the ego of a scoutmaster who is bent on revenege doesnt seem scout like Does anyone remember the story of the prodigal son? How one son took riches from his father and squandered them and came back? How was he treated? How did the son who stayed with his father react and do you see any similarities to the Scout who comes back to finish Eagle ?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 No Bob. Purely hypothetical. Does this remind you of a real Troop? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Ed, I agree with BW, your hypothetical was just a wee bit too convincing. That said, I accept your statement that it is hypothetical. ...but it was pretty convincing, you wouldn't happen to be a writer would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankj Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 OGE's prodigal son arguement is convincing, even though to me, Scout Spirit is demonstrated to a large degree, by active participation in the troop. If I were the Scoutmaster I would try and satisfy myself that there was adequate Scout Spirit as suggested by another poster. Not to change the topic, but which situation is more common, the "invisible Scout" or the "vanishing Scout", i.e. one that zooms through the program all the way to Eagle and then is not seen again? A boy in our troop told me that he is going to get his Eagle because it looks good on a resume and is going to quit Scouts once he attains the rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 packsaddle, Nope. Programmer. What do you mean by "a wee bit to convincing"? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Ed, If there was nothing wrong with the leadership of the troop it wouldn't have been left to the scout to realize he only needed his project to finish. If there was nothing wrong with the troop the scout would not have done all that work to get up to Eagle and then leave. If the Scoutmaster was doing his part to know and understand the needs and characteristics of each scout then he (hypothetically he) would have known of the scouts change in attitude and when the scout returned would have sat downand talked with him about how he has spent his time while away and how he has been using the ideals of scouting during his absence. To say the scenario is hypothetical is not license to make the elements unrealistic. Scouts don't do everything up to Eagle and leave for no reason. You are ready to judge this scout before you understand him. I think it's clear from all the responses to your question that we want the SM to sit down and talk with the scout. The BSA wants him judged on how he uses the ideals of the Oath and Law in his life not his attendance record. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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