Transgenders in Scouting?

[Oak Tree]

I''d certainly have no issues with a transgendered volunteer. All leadership positions are open to both genders anyway, so I don''t know how it would matter from a policy perspective.

 

Now, I can imagine some controversy among the parents...

[DanKroh]

eisely writes: "Coming to the question if a known transgendered person wanted to volunteer, I do not see any harm in that. One of the operative words here is "known" since I doubt that any volunteer presenting themselves as either a male or a female would say, "Oh by the way, last year I was something different." I don''''t know how this would be picked up as a discrepancy or anomaly (sp?) in a criminal background check. Since these are done at BSA national, I have no idea how they would deal with something like that."

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

It is very difficult for TG''s, especially if they are parents, to NOT have it know about their TG status. Some try to go "stealth" (meaning, not revealing to anyone their status), but it''s hard if they are parents with young children. A FTM may still have his children call him "Mom", for instance, because nothing changes the biological fact that he gave birth to them before transitioning.

 

As far as the CORI, I''m not real familiar with what all they check, but I assumed it would pick up a change of name, and if the previous name was obviously a gender-specific name of the opposite gender, eyebrows would shoot up. Even having to submit a license for a CORI could let the cat out of the bag, since not everyone is able to change their license to show their new gender.

 

 

 

[acco40]

What is the legal definition of male or female? Does it just involve reproductive organs? Does it just involve chromosome patterns? From my definition, the vast majority of "transgender" surgeries occurs within days of birth and parents have to make a determination of what sex they want their newborn to take. This makes me squirm, but it is much easier to "lop off" than to "add on" so to speak.

 

On a similar note, how does one define racial identity? On one hand, some say their is no real genetic difference between races. Yet, when my children apply to college, in my state, they use affirmative action, what prevents them from stating that they are African American, hispanic or whatever? What is the legal definition of these term? John Kerry''s wife, an African American in my book, was mocked for labeling herself as such.

[scoutingagain]

"All leadership positions are open to both genders anyway, so I don''''t know how it would matter from a policy perspective. "

 

While this statement is true, all adult leaders serve at the pleasure of their CO and the BSA. Either can reject an adult leader''s application for just about any reason they want. They don''t even have to provide an explanation.

 

Now I know of BSA national policy or position on this issue, so I could imagine that a known or declared transgendered person being accepted by some COs and councils and rejected by others. I would not be suprised though to have National step in if some large group of COs chose to weigh in on the matter.

 

SA

 

[packsaddle]

Beavah, you can change the double quote back to single using the edit mode. I noticed the same thing.

 

Thanks Dan, for starting this thread and especially with the benefit of your expertise. My mention of this issue in several past threads was primarily with respect to adult membership. I was aware that this was happening at very young ages but I thought it was a rare event.

 

I think my most recent mention was a hypothetical situation in which a male leader decides to become female and subsequently becomes romantically involved with another male leader. As I remember, in the hypothetical I had decided to go under the knife and then Ed found me very attractive, or something like that. Heh, heh, I'd still like to see national sort that one out.

 

But regarding the karyotype, even chromosomes may not be all that reliable when one considers the growing evidence that human examples of genetic mosaics and chimeras are fairly common in our population. I found a link to one of the most cited cases of this which also notes some medical and ethical issues.

http://www.katewerk.com/chimera.html

This article has copied the original text from the New Scientist article, which you might be able to find in a library. Or you can pay for access online.

 

The following article covers the general topic of genetic mosaics and chimeras. It is a good place to start if anyone is interested. Note that probably half of the human population is a genetic mosaic of some sort. This stuff is so interesting that it makes me wish I had another lifetime to observe and study these things.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/genetics/medgen/chromo/mosaics.html

 

But the result is that BSA can''t reasonably base policy on genetics alone. The problem is, by basing it on behavior, they nearly have to allow transgender adults. So if I, a male WASP, was married to a MTF-transgendered black person whose features nevertheless remain very male, would I be considered homo- or hetero-sexual by BSA?

Would BSA allow me to be a leader? How about my partner?

 

Edited part: Here's another interesting twist to all this if anyone is interested: Human-animal chimeras. Now this is really an interesting topic for those of us disposed to moral absolutes:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1856883/posts(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Aquila]

 

And yes, just because he cut off his manhood, he''d still be male. Michael Jackson''s still black (In your situation, what does his being black have to do with it?)

 

Justify it all you want, they''re still spitting in the face of the Almighty.

 

[packsaddle]

Aquila,

Could you clarify that 'spitting' part? Specifically, what does that mean anyway and how does becoming a transexual amount to "spitting in the face of the Almighty". That might be your opinion but wouldn't it be more authoritative if the 'almighty' spoke for him/her/itself?

 

Regarding race, the topic had already included variation in age, gender, role, etc. Let's face it, this topic is a mix of questions involving biology, psychology, morality, BSA policy, technology, sociology, and prejudice. I decided to add a touch of race to try to complete the picture. Chalk it up to my desire to be 'inclusive' if you want. And it WORKED, didn't it? You joined right in...welcome to the thread!

 

Edited part: fixing those pesky double quotes.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[John-in-KC]

Thinking to adults wishing to be Scouters...

 

Life is pretty complicated for a 8-18 year old. Do we really need to make it more so by having Ms Smith, who still has male biological parts?

 

Or Mr Johnson, who still has C cup breasts?

 

To me, prudence would say we ask these folk to wait until the conversion is complete.

 

Does that make sense?

[packsaddle]

John-in-KC, uhhhhhh, they're not supposed to KNOW about those male parts on her, are they? H'mmmm? Same for the C-cup. I CAN tell you they are VERY aware of the chubby kid with the breasts that are at least C-cup size...and he is accepted just fine.

Anyway maybe the guy just likes to cross dress...just a few steps away from a kilt and panties, right? So what!

Around here I bet the boys would be fine with it, maybe better able to handle it than the adults. I could be wrong though, better not test it just yet. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[DanKroh]

I was unavailable for a while, so I''m going to hit several issues in one reply, if you will bear with me.

 

acco40 writes: "What is the legal definition of male or female? Does it just involve reproductive organs? Does it just involve chromosome patterns? From my definition, the vast majority of "transgender" surgeries occurs within days of birth and parents have to make a determination of what sex they want their newborn to take. This makes me squirm, but it is much easier to "lop off" than to "add on" so to speak."

 

Acco, like John, I believe what you are referencing are actually "intersexed" people, not transgendered. Intersexed people have (often due to chromosomal abnormalities, but not always) genitalia of both genders, and yes, the determination of which gender they will be is usually, but not always, made early in infancy.

 

However, that is NOT what transgendered is. TGs are chromosomally, physiologically normal males or females who feel that their body does not correctly express their correct gender (i.e., the gender that they feel they are in their brain).

 

Aquila writes: "Justify it all you want, they''''re still spitting in the face of the Almighty."

 

I, too, would like a clarification of this. The usually feeling I have found among those with transphobia based on their religious beliefs is that transgendered people are "changing God''s design". But I think that if you feel that correcting something that endangers a person''s health is "going against God''s design" because it changes their body from the way they were born, then you also have to be against surgeries for the intersexed, surgeries for people born with any other birth defect (including my son and his life-saving heart surgery), and any medical treatments for any condition that is congenital (present at birth).

 

I have much less problem with extreme religious views if they are at least consistant. But again, this has been my personal (and professional) experience, and may not be where you are coming from. So, please, do clarify.

 

John-in-KC, I also think it would probably be much more of an issue if someone wanted to join scouting mid-transition or transition while active as a leader. But what about someone who has transitioned years ago, but may not have had surgery on their genitalia (commonly called "bottom surgery" as opposed to "top surgery" to either add or remove breasts) as part of their transition? While most transitioning involves top surgery, a much smaller percentage have bottom surgery. Does continuing to have parts of what is now the opposite gender (which they may have no intention of ever changing) still present a problem? Or is the fact that those parts should be under wraps (so to speak) at all times anyway alleviate that?

 

Packsaddle, again, I think you found the head of the nail first. I would think that the biggest part of the problem is sexuality (which is completely separate from gender, but definitely related). Most, if not all, TGs are faced with being labeled "homosexual" at some point. Either they start out "straight" but then are perceived as "gay" after transition, or they are "gay" pre-transition, but are then perceived as "straight" after transition. And I won''t even get into the ones who are bisexual or pansexual, so nothing really changes for them in that regard.

 

In case all that is confusing, here is an example: a lesbian who transitions to male, but is still attracted to females is now a "straight man". But a "straight woman" who transitions to male is now a "gay man, assuming he still is only attracted to men. Which one would be verboten, the one who was gay before transition, or the one who is gay after transition? Or both?

 

Interestingly, while the usually quoted percentage of homosexuals in the general population is about 10%, the percentage of those identifying as not-heterosexual among the TG community is more like 50%. Which is one of the reasons why "trans issues" usually get lumped in with "gay issues", at least in my experience.

 

Also pack, I''m looking forward to checking out the articles you provided, just haven''t had a chance yet.

[packsaddle]

Dan, good to have you back. That last link has some feedback after the article. If you think the article opens up a plethora of issues, scroll way down and take a look at one of the photos. I'm trying to figure out the source for that contrivance and the purpose of the image, but I have drawn a blank so far. It is a creature with both animal and human features, evidently on display with its offspring. Rather unsettling to some, I should think, but it illustrates probably some of the worst fears of those same people.

Edited part: Found it! Patricia Piccinini sculpture entitled, "The Young Family". What a wonderfully creative mind she must have. She has a web site with more good stuff like this as well! Hope to see it myself someday.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Hunt]

I''m curious about whether it''s thought that the brain of a transgendered person is somehow physically or chemically different, or it the sense of being the "wrong" sex psychological? If there''s a physical difference in the brain, then it''s really not so different from the "intersexed" baby who has physical characteristics of both sexes. If it''s psychological, then the issue gives me more pause.

[DanKroh]

Hunt asks: "I''''m curious about whether it''''s thought that the brain of a transgendered person is somehow physically or chemically different, or it the sense of being the "wrong" sex psychological? If there''''s a physical difference in the brain, then it''''s really not so different from the "intersexed" baby who has physical characteristics of both sexes. If it''''s psychological, then the issue gives me more pause."

 

Although there have not been many studies done, those that have do show a difference in some section of the brains of transgendered people that resemble more closely that of their "internal" gender. However, it is not known whether those differences are the cause, or a result of their transgenderism.

 

The current theory is that probable maternal hormonal influences in utero affect the development of the brain, so that it develops similar to the gender opposite that of the body.

 

The idea that transgenderism is psychological has, of course, been and continues to be held by some. However, these theories have never been proven for even a minority of TG people. Given that TG people have to go through rather extensive psychological screening before transition can begin, it would become fairly quickly obvious if that were the case.

[acco40]

Differences in the male and female brain?

 

A man starts to get terrible headaches that won't go away. His wife finally convinces him to go to the doctor. She accompanies him to the hospital for a bunch of tests - blood chemistry, MRI, etc.

 

A few weeks go by and his doctor suggests they both come to his office to meet with him and they comply. Well, says the doctor, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that you have inoperable brain cancer. Shaken the man looks glumly at the floor as his wife holds his hand. After a full minute his wife asks, what is the good news? Well, the good news is that we now have advanced so far with medical science that we are now in a position to do a brain transplant and your husband is an excellent candidate!

 

Elated, the couple embraces. However, the husband, concerned about his family's finances asks what the cost of the transplant will be. Well, explains the doctor, we have two choices. If you want a male brain, the cost is $150,000. However, if you want a female brain the cost is only $12,000. The husband lets out a laugh and nudges his wife. Puzzled, the wife asks the doctor, how come the male brain costs so much more?

 

Well, explains the doctor, that's because it has never been used before. :-)(This message has been edited by acco40)

[OldGreyEagle]

Just to be accurate, if you are a male wearing a kilt, you had better not be wearin'' panties nor any other hint of an undergarment if you know whats good for you (and you want to be historically accurate)