Transgenders in Scouting?

[DanKroh]

"I almost forgot about that ''gender reassignment'' comment. I have tried on several occasions to get some discussion on this topic to see how BSA would view the issues surrounding it. It is an interesting topic that''s still unexplored....but I''ve already been under the knife enough times in my life, no thanks."

 

Ok, Packsaddle, my friend, I guess that makes me the logical one to throw myself into this breach, seeing as how working with transgendered people is pretty much my bread and butter.

 

So what is the BSA policy on transgendered people (pre- or post-transition) as leaders or even youth members (given that there are now cub scout age children transitioning)? If there isn''t one, what do you think it should be?

 

Let''s start with some common terminology, since this is an area that not everyone is going to be familiar with. MTF (male-to-female) means a genetic (or bio-) male who female-identifies. FTM (female-to-male) is a genetic (or bio-) female who male-identifies. Pre-transition means before medical intervention to change their bodies to match their "internal" gender. Post-transition means after medical intervention (which may include hormones, any number of different surgeries, both, or neither) and living as their "internal" gender. It is considered very disrespectful to refer to TGs (transgendered) as "it", "shemale", "she/he", etc, and most respectful to refer to them with pronouns referring to their self-identified gender.

 

[Beavah]

given that there are now cub scout age children transitioning

 

Yah, OK, I don''t particularly want to hijack Dan''s thread. But I would want to see any parent or doc who allowed or promoted a cub-scout aged youth to "gender transition" to spend a long, long time behind bars.

 

Beavah

 

 

[fgoodwin]

dan, as a professional in the field, I wonder what you think about the David Reimer / John Money case?

[DanKroh]

Fred, I think what Money did was beyond despicable. David Reimer was not a transgendered person, and the fact that Money lied to help cover up a botched circumcision rather than try to get Reimer help through phalloplasty is disgusting. He should never have treated Reimer as if he were transgendered.

 

Beavah,

 

I believe the youngest record of transitioning is 6. There was publicity recently (via Barbara Walters) about Riley Grant (formerly Richard Grant), a young MTF who began transitioning at 7 years old. She is now 10 and quite happy, after being suicidal from living in the wrong body.

 

While the treatment of someone so young is quite controversial, even among those of us who are in the field, it is becoming more common. What should have been done to Riley if she had been in Cub Scouts while she was still "Richard"? Or even more so, what about a young FTM who has transitioned and wants to join?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[eisely]

I have to count myself among the skeptical regarding transgendering. I have personally never dealt with anyone of any age whom I knew to be transgendered - which gets me to my first point.

 

If a boy came to join up who had been transgendered I would have no difficulty signing him up. Legally he is a boy and wants to be a boy. Why would I even want to know or care? If there were any ongoing associated medical issues that I would need to know about, then I would want to know, but otherwise, "Don''t ask - don''t tell."

 

Having a boy in a unit who is planning to become a girl is another matter. I would think that such a youth would be happier not being part of a male activity. I would rather not have to deal with explaining what is going on to the other boys in the unit. Such decisions are difficult for the families involved and I would think they would want to maximize their privacy. I don''t know what I would do if some parent came up to me and informed me that in twelve months little Johnny is going to be Jane. Suggestions anyone?

[scoutldr]

I would say, "well, for the next year, he can be a wolf, then he can be a Brownie".

 

I agree with eisely. Who are we to judge? Should the BSA now demand to see proof of a Y chromosome, in addition to being straight and non-atheist?

[fgoodwin]

dan, thanx for your comments.

 

Setting aside for a moment the issue of the transgendered, what I (as an uneducated layman) take away from the Reimer case is that boys are boys and girls are girls -- those who think males and females are essentially the same and attribute any differences between "girlness" and "boyness" as the result of upbringing, culture and socialization need to consider the Reimer case.

 

He too was in the "wrong" body, and no amount of socialization to the contrary could turn him into something he wasn''t. Again, to a mere uneducated layman, that tells me gender, like sex, is biological, not social.

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, DanKroh. After throwin'' the parents and docs in jail, if an FTM kid shows up and wants to participate in a Boy Scouting program, I think yeh welcome him. Can''t help the past, or the foolishness of adults who are into pushing the envelope to advance their own agenda at a kid''s expense. Gotta love the kid where he''s at, and make the best of it.

 

Beavah

 

P.S. Anybody know why my single quotes '' are all showing up as double quotes " ? Have they all decided that they''re really double quotes stuck in a single quote body, and Scouter Terry is helping them transition?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

eisely writes:

If a boy came to join up who had been transgendered I would have no difficulty signing him up. Legally he is a boy and wants to be a boy.

 

The legal sex of someone who has gone through transgender surgery varies by state. Some recognize the person''s new sex, some don''t.

 

It should come as no surprise that Texas is totally screwed up when it comes to this issue. A male-to-female TG can marry a man in Houston or a woman in San Antonio, but not vice-versa, because these cities differ on whether they go by birth certificate or current gender.

 

PS: my guess about the double quotes is a side-effect of changes to prevent javascript phishing in e.g. subject lines

[evmori]

If a boy wants to join he can as long as he's a boy. If he is still in the process of becoming a boy, then no & I'm not sure how I feel if when she/he completes the process of membership.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[DanKroh]

"Setting aside for a moment the issue of the transgendered, what I (as an uneducated layman) take away from the Reimer case is that boys are boys and girls are girls -- those who think males and females are essentially the same and attribute any differences between "girlness" and "boyness" as the result of upbringing, culture and socialization need to consider the Reimer case.

 

He too was in the "wrong" body, and no amount of socialization to the contrary could turn him into something he wasn''''t. Again, to a mere uneducated layman, that tells me gender, like sex, is biological, not social."

 

Thank you, Fred, for that lead in. Yes, the entire basis of TG treatment is that gender is determined biologically, by both the body and by the brain. Boys and girls think differently, their brains form differently in utero. One is transgendered when the brain develops as one sex that is different from the body''s sex. Since this can cause extreme distress in some, we treat them by changing the body, since we cannot currently change the brain.

 

Beavah, I''m still curious why you would jail parents and doctors for treating a child for a defect of their birth? Just because the child is young? Or do you somehow imagine parents "forcing" a change on their child because they wanted a girl and got a boy?

 

I agree that diagnosing transgender (or gender identity disphoria, which is the official diagnosis) in younger people is tricky, but when the diagnosis is clear, and the child is depressed and suicidal because of it, how is it wrong to respect the child''s desire, one may even say need, to express their "true" gender?

 

Actually, I''m more interested in how scouting would respond to an TG adult who wished to become a leader. Even if they have been living in their correct gender for years, I assume submitting to the manditory CORI would reveal that they had a previous name and gender. Would that send up any red flags on that adults application? Would you still be willing to have Joe as a leader knowing he was once Jane? Or can Jane be a den leader, when she was once Joe?

[John-in-KC]

I''m confused now, can you good folks help here?

 

Are we talking about children who are genetically males, and have female functions?

 

Equally, are we talking about genetically females, and have male functions?

 

Both of those to me sound like birth defects. How and when you deal with the corrective surgery is a big ??? to me.

 

OR

 

Are we talking about genetically correct boys and girls whose parents decide to change them?

 

I''m really confused about where and why we''re here.

 

Thanks, John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[DanKroh]

John, I''ll try here:

 

"Are we talking about children who are geneticallymales, and have female functions? Equally, are we talking about geneticallyfemales, and have male functions? Both of those to me sound like birth defects. How and when you deal with the corrective surgery is a big ??? to me."

 

Depends on what you mean by "functions". A transgendered person may have, for example, a normally functioning male body (a genetic male), but a brain that developed to believe that person is female. This is a male-to-female transgender, and if her gender disphoria is strong enough, she may decide to transition, which would involve taking female hormones and have surgeries to make her body female as well. Now, transitioning can only happen after evaluation and diagnosis of "gender identifity disorder/disphoria" by a mental health professional, which usually happens after a minimum of 3-6 months of therapy. Approval for surgery often require the person to have lived in their correct gender for a specified amount of time. Not everyone who transitions has surgery. Some people even transition without hormones (but that''s very difficult for most people to do because they often don''t "pass" well as their correct gender).

 

This type of medical intervention is not undertaken lightly, and evaluation and diagnosis is even more intense for minors. Many therapists will not even consider transition for someone before puberty, but that wall is being broken down in extreme cases such as Riley Grant. If you want to read more about Riley, I believe google will help you out there.

 

"Are we talking about genetically correct boys and girls whose parents decide to change them?"

 

No, this would be criminal abuse, if the child is not truly a transgendered person and does not fit the diagnostic criteria.

 

Just to complete our terminology, I believe what you are describing in your first paragraph is someone who is born with a body that has both male and female characteristics/physical function, which is called "intersexed". That is very different from being transgendered, although the treatment is often very similar, and intersexed people often feel comfortable as part of the transgender "community". A simple way to put transgenderism is that the brain believes that person to be a different gender than their body.

[John-in-KC]

Dan, I thank you.

 

As a unit serving Scouter, I think the right thing to do is bring the Council''s Surgeon (I don''t know of too many Councils which do not have a physician volunteer somewhere on their Executive Board) into the loop. Then there is a medical professional, who can talk with other medical professionals. Concurrently, he or she, a competent Scouter, can talk Scouting to us Scouters.

 

Then we can do what''s in the best interests of the child, of the unit, and of Scouting.

[eisely]

Merlyn actually provides some useful information - namely that state laws differ. In this regard there is a new initiative that may make it onto the ballot here in California regarding same sex marriage. In that initiative gender is defined on chromosomes, not appearance or surgical change or anything else.

 

Coming to the question if a known transgendered person wanted to volunteer, I do not see any harm in that. One of the operative words here is "known" since I doubt that any volunteer presenting themselves as either a male or a female would say, "Oh by the way, last year I was something different." I don''t know how this would be picked up as a discrepancy or anomaly (sp?) in a criminal background check. Since these are done at BSA national, I have no idea how they would deal with something like that.