Discipline: Whose Responsibility?

[Twocubdad]

Well, in the situation presented, "deal with" could include re-working the duty roster for the patrol to require that the two boys who had shirked their responsibilities did their fair share.

 

I'm not suggesting corporal punishment, or anything that could be a YP violation. But what I'm reading here is that the appropriate response of the SPL and SM is to sit on their hands until a meeting of the troop committee can be called.

 

Tell me what I'm missing(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Bob White]

I see a pandoras box being opened once a program with as many members as we have of differing attitudes and backgrounds are given permission to punish children.

 

The BSA does not train leaders on how to punish or discipline for a very good reason...that is not what we are about.

 

If you have a scouts who don't want to cook you are going to have a very angry patrol on your hands. They are going to be hungry. I would teach the Patrol Leader to remind the two scouts that a scout is helpful and they need to do their part of the duties. I would have the patrol leader ask why they would not help. Perhaps there was a reasonably explaination for the disharmony. If the scouts simply refused to help for no reason other than they didn't want to help, I would call their parents and have them taken home until they could participate according to the Oath and Law.

 

It's sort of a method of show me some character or take a car ride. Let the parents be the disciplinarians, you be a scout leader.

 

If I do nothing tempers will build and mischief will follow, possibly even a fight. It is a recipe for injury. Having boys behave this way is unsafe, they need to go home.

 

Give them an opportunity to behave in a scout like way or leave. It's the best motivator in the world...if you want to do scout stuff ,you have to behave like a scout.

 

There is more the rules of punishment than just the one about not using corporal punishment. I've seen all sorts of humiliation done to scouts who misbehave. It is demeaning to the scout and to scouting. The most appropriate thing to do is leave punishment to parents and you focus on training junior leaders.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

What these Scouts did was wrong. They should have been sent home and then the Troop committee could have been apprised of the situation and dealt with it accordingly.

 

Now, by sending them home, is this punishment? It could be considered that. Granted, we are not responsible for punishing Scouts. But it is our responsibility to handle situations like these with the best interests of the Troop & safety for the Scouts.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[eisely]

This has also been addressed in other threads. I guess I have a problem with the use of the word "punish." If by punishment we mean pushups, extra duties, or corporal punishment, then that is out of bounds. If we mean witholding rewards, such as access to treats, then I don't think that is prohibited.

 

There is a difference between punishment and maintaining order and discipline to ensure that assigned duties are taken care of and safe practices are followed in various activities. If I understand BW correctly the only real recourse is suspension or removal from membership. That can be construed as punishment, but I don't think that BW would look at it that way. It is clear that either of these last two drastic steps are the responsibility of the committee working with the parents and the adult leadership of the troop.

 

Maintaining discipline is primarily the responsibility of the youth leadership. That is part of what leadership is all about. Adults are there to help the youth leaders do their jobs and to ensure that nothing gets out of hand, such as tieing doors shut. Sending a youth home from an activity may also be construed as a form of punishment, but the times I have seen this happen it was usually because the conduct that brought this about was unsafe. There may be an element of punishment in the mind of the scout sent home, and in the minds of the parents, but it has to be presented as an action taken for safety reasons or because the scout was uncooperative.

[Twocubdad]

Ed, can you and Bob define punishment for me? Can you provide me with some documentation from the literature?

 

Thumbing through the Guide to Safe Scouting, I find the following (all of which are in bold-face type. Added emphasis is mine.):

 

"Constructive Discipline: DISCIPLINE USED IN SCOUTING SHOULD BE CONSTRUCTIVE AND REFELCT SCOUTING'S VALUES."

 

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members AND INTERCEDING WHEN NECESSARY. Parents of youth members who misbehave SHOULD BE informed and asked for ASSISTANCE in dealing with it."

 

"The BSA does not permit corporal punishment by unit leaders WHEN DISCIPLINING YOUTH MEMBERS."

 

"The unit committee should REVIEW repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior...."

 

"If problem behavior persists, units MAY revoke a scout's membership...."

 

What I'm hearing here (reading this thread) is that the only recourse for a leader (either a boy or adult) is to verbally remind an offending scout of his responsibilities as a scout or to send him home. A leader has no option for corrective action (action as compared to talk) when dealing with misbehavior.

 

But what I read in the G2SS is CORPORAL punishment is prohibited (and I would define that as ANY physical punishment, including the ol' "drop and give me 20"), but I don't see where ALL punishment is prohibited. I see a strong bias for involving the committee and parents in discipline, but I don't see where ONLY parents and the committee can discipline a boy. I read that the unit MAY suspend a boy's membership, but not that it is their only option.

 

 

Eisley, your post slipped in ahead of mine, but I agree with what you are say, particularly the first paragraph. I also agree with you that discipline is a chain of command issue and should be handled at the lowest appropriate level. But as the G2SS says, adult leaders are ultimately responsible.

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Bob White]

Eisley,

I encourage you to re-read Section 1 of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Discipline is not the job of youth leadership and you will not find anything in the scouting program to my knowledge that supports your opinion. The role of the junior leader is to plan, encourage, train, communicate, set the example, represent, but nowhere is disciplining regarded as a leadership skill or responsibility for junior leaders. The guide to safe scouting clearly states that this is an adult responsibility and directs you on how it should be handled.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Punishment - Any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or offense.

 

Sending a Scout home due for any reason could be considered a loss or suffering.

 

To me, punishment is a result behavior. If a Scout steals, the his punishment might be making ammends for the stolen property. Corporal punishment is never allowed.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

If by constructive you think having a scout who misbehaves clean a latrine, all you will gain is a clean latrine not a scout who understands how to behave correctly. If you mean have them sit in a corner, all you will have is an embarrased scout who behaves badly. We had a situation once when a SM didn't like the way a scout was treating his tent and was going to make him sleep outside in the rain. That's neglect and it's illegal.

 

If you mean sit with the scout and ask him why he is behaving this way and find out what might be troubling him. Ask him how he feels this is in keeping with the oath he has taken. Ask him what a better way to handle the situation might be. Explain how his actions effect the patrol and troop. Explain to him that his behavior needs to follow the oath and law. Let him know you believe is a better person than what he is behaving as. Take the time to understand the scout and help the scout understand what it means to be a scout. Then I would say THAT is constructive.

 

Constructive is ending up with a better person not a cleaner latrine.

 

If the scout does not feel he can behave like a scout then he has no business being on a scout event and is a danger to himself and others and needs to go home.

 

There is no punishment in this, there is a concern for the scout's development and a concern for the welfare of the boys.

 

I am still waiting for anyone to post a reference from any BSA source that gives ideas or guidelines on punishments or Disciplining that includes anything other than involving their parents for assistance.

 

Bob White

 

The best way to control the group as a leader is to understand the individual scouts and be aware of whats happening around you.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Twocubdad]

If a scout leaves the latrine a mess, making him clean it is an appropriate "punishment" and may teach him that there are consequences for his actions.

 

If a scout causes his entire patrol to be late for, and thus miss their free swim period, revoking that scout's swim privileges the next day may be an appropriate, constructive form of discipline.

 

If a scout abuses troop equipment, giving him extra quartermaster duty may allow him to better understand the need to properly care for equipment.

 

And I say MAY in each case as it is the responsibility of the adult leader know each boy and to use good judgement to ensure that the punishment is constructive and reflective of BSA values. The guy who made the scout sleep in the rain is an idiot and should not be a scout leader. But let's not use a case of poor judgement to argue against the use of sound judgement.

 

Bob, you asked for a reference from any BSA source that gives "ideas or guidelines on punishments or disciplining that includes anything other than involving their parents for assistance." Here's one, which I noted earlier, from Section I of the Guide to Safe Scouting, page 4: "Constructive Discipline: Discipline used in Scouting should be constructive and reflect Scouting's values. Corporal punishment is never permitted."

[Bob White]

And if I put the two choices of having the scout clean quartermater or spending time with him discussing his behavior and the ideals of scouting on to a scale that measures constructive here is what I see.

 

If the purpose of scouting is to have a clean QM then send the scout in to do extra work.

 

If the purpose of scouting is the teach the scout to make ethical choices based on the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law then I sit down and talk to the scout.

 

You can accomplish more personal growth in a 15 minute conference than in 15 hours of chores.

 

I guess "constructive" depends on what you are trying to build.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[eisely]

Again, we are not being careful with our words. Discipline has at least two meanings. The first definition is punishment. In my dictionary there is also another definition, "...controlled and orderly behavior resulting from training." This is the kind of discipline I have in mind when I say I think youth leadership has a role here. This applies to adherance to the duty roster, conduct on the trail, conduct on the water, conduct on the ropes, or conduct generally. I don't think BW means to say that youth leaders have no role here.

 

Also, picking up on an example offered in another post, how do you handle a situation where a kid has made a mess in a latrine that everybody has to use? Leaving the mess creates a health and safety hazard. Having the other boys clean it up is clearly not fair. Having the kid who made the mess clean it up, after the 15 minute conversation that BW recommends, may be construed as punishment, but it can also be viewed as merely correcting a situation the scout created. Actually a good 15 minute conversation may result in the scout offering to clean it up, or at least acquiescing in the chore. Certainly the kind of conversation BW believes is appropriate, is in fact necessary, regardless of whatever other steps may be taken. Assigning the offending scout to latrine duty for the rest of the outing would be punishment, and would be inappropriate.

[Bob White]

Now I think we have reached a common agreement eisely.

 

The result of the personal conference should create one of two responses from the scout. We will reach an understanding as to why he littered the latrine and he will realize that what he did was not scout-like. When I ask him what he now thinks he should do to correct the problem HE will make the correct decision to go clean the the mess he made. That is not a punishment, that is a scout learning to make ethical decisions.

 

The second possibillity is that the boy will refuse to clean the mess he made, in which case he is not living by the scout ideals and does not belong on a scout activity. In addition he is a health risk to the other scouts and needs to be disciplined. Since it is the parents' responsibility to discipline him, I need to get him and his parents into the same place so that they can do their job. He is going to call his parents and say that he needs to go home because he is not behaving well.

 

The scouts learn very quickly that if you want to play with scouts- you have to play like a scout.

 

 

Bob White

 

[evmori]

I have always felt the consequences should fit the crime. If a Scout purposefully messes up the latrine, he should clean that latrine. Naturally, the SM should have a discussion with this Scout to explain there are consequences for his actions & so forth.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Twocubdad]

I agree completely with your definition of discipline. I don't believe discipline and punishment can be used interchangably. I've wanted to make make that point a couple of times, but didn't want to get side tracked.

 

The definition of discipline I like comes from The Citadel, I think. "Discipline is training which makes punishment unnecesary." A disciplined scout has the self control and character to keep himself out of situations where punishment may be the end result. To become disciplined, one undertakes training, practice and study in advance of a situation where he may get himself into trouble.

 

It is also interesting that the word discipline is derrived from disciple, which is one who follows a person, ideal or philosophy. Hmmm...there's a good Scoutmaster's Minute in there somewhere.

 

But back to the discussion, Bob wrote that "You can accomplish more personal growth in a 15 minute conference than in 15 hours of chores." I'm not sure that's true. If it were, we could reduce all of Scouting to a series of Scoutmaster conferences, and do away with all this camping and hiking.

 

Of course I'm being facetious, but doing is a lot more effective that hearing, regardless of the lesson. The beauty of the 15 hours of chores is not resulting clean latrine, but the 15 hours of quiet introspection one gains while staring at long end of a row of dirty toilets. The conclusions a boy draws about his own behavior are going to be much more meaningful than those he hears from his Scoutmaster.

 

Eisley makes another good point that the "victims" of the misbehavior need to be considered, too. In pamalam's original post (remember pamalam? Hi pam, you still following any of this?), the two boys' misbehavior included shirking their cooking duties. Someone, presumably the other boys in the patrol, had to do more than their share of work or not eat. "Making things right" with the other boys needs to be part of the equation.

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Bob White]

Here is where the canyon that separates Ed and I begins. Ed sees the act of littering the latrine as a crime, I see it as a mistake. Ed sees the scout cleaning up his own mess as punishment, I see it as an ethical decision that the scout has chosen to make. It is not a matter of symantics, it is a difference in attitude and leader method.

 

It doesn't take leadership skills to make a boy do what you tell him to. It takes leadership skills to guide a scout to make self-determined choices based on the scouting ideals.

 

Bob White