Discipline: Whose Responsibility?

[pamalam]

We're in a quandry - our troop has a few members who are consistantly causing problems on campouts and during troop meetings. They are all in positions of leadership - which is at the crux of the problem. These boys comprise more than half of the PLC.

 

On our last trip, their antics continued and the SPL asked for help from the SM. The SM gave them a 30-60 second talking to and let it go. He doesn't feel that it was any big deal and told other that there were only minor problems on the trip and that they were dealt with at the time. However, the SPL (and the boys and adults that were also on the trip) doesn't feel like the action taken was sufficient. What should he do?

 

Thanks for your help!(This message has been edited by pamalam)

[SR540Beaver]

Without a litle more supporting detail, it is hard to comment. Are the things they do really small, but the amount and frequency makes them into a big deal? Or are they really major incidents? please provide some detail of how the boys are misbehaving and why others feel it is a big deal over the SM's opinion.

[pamalam]

I was present at the last campout and this trip. At the last campout, the PL and Historian hold up in a tent at a 'camporee' type event and did not show leadership in any capacity. They did not participate in any events and did not assists with any chores.

 

This trip, we stayed in a condominium. Once again, they did not participate in cooking or cleanup. One evening they used a rope to tie the handle of the door to the stair railing so that the boys inside the room(the entire rest of the troop) could not get out.

 

These incidents may seem innocuous but it just seems to be a constant source of irritation for the rest of the boys in the troop. They never know when these boys will strike or what they'll do. The SM is always threatening to revote their leadership positions 'the next time it happens' but there is never any followthrough.

 

I feel that if these boys do not have any consequences to their defiance of the SM and SPL, there is no reason for them to stop. We have some new Webelos that just crossed over and I'm concerned as to what lesson they will learn from these types of incidences.

 

Sincerely,

Frustrated Parent :-)

[Scoutmaster Ron]

We use the two strike policy once the second strike is issued parents are called and the boy goes home immediatly.

[Bob White]

As far as the responsibility of the Scoutmaster...it is to train junior leaders.

 

As far as behavior....(according to the Guide to Safe Scouting)it is every members responsibility to behave in scout-like manner as represented in the Oath and Law.

 

As far as punishment and dicsiplining a child, that is the responsibility of the parents. When the child's behavior interferes with the goals or activities of the scouting program or endangers his own or another scout's welfare, it is the responsibility of the unit committee with the parents involvement to resolve the problem. That resolution can include removal of of boy's membership from the unit.

 

Scoutmasters are neither trained, or expected, to punish other peoples children.

[Eagledad]

I think it's already past that point. The SPL should displine bad behavoir with the support and guidence of the SM. In the best case senerio the SPL should only ask for guidence in situations beyound his control or experience, but report all misbehavoir so the SM can work with those scouts. In this case, it seems the SM is not suporting the SPL. I would suggest the SPL write down some suggestions of punishments that he apply to bad behaver. He will also give the SM a report. This way the SPL is doing his job with the approval and guidence of the SM. You are right that there is no consistant expectation of disapline, so the scouts will push the boundaries until someone either gets hurt, or loose their temper and say something they regret. If the SPL consistantly punishes bad behavoir, eventally they will figure out that something will have to change.

 

I would feel more comfortable that the SM is supporting the SPL and making sure the whole troop follows the SPLs lead. The SM needs to be consistant that he sits down with each scout for each occurance. Hope this helps.

 

Barry

[Bob White]

Barry,

I always enjoy your posts and often agree with what you have to say, but where in the leadership training of the scouting program do we teach adults or youth how or when to 'punish' scouts. The rules of the Youth Protection are clear on this. Punishment is the responsibility of the unit committee and onlywith the direct involvement of the parents or guardians.

 

Unless you know of any material in the BSA program that supports other actions your advice could cause the adult or junior leader to forfeit their membership in the unit and possibly in the BSA.

 

I understand the emotion to want to discipline the scout as you would a parent with a child however you are not their parent, they are not your child. If their behavior requires punishment then send them home to those responsible for that aspect of their development.

 

If the lesson you want to teach cannot be learned without punishment then it is not a lesson you should be teaching.

 

Bob White

[Glenn]

Pamalean stated: . One evening they used a rope to tie the handle of the door to the stair railing so that the boys inside the room(the entire rest of the troop) could not get out.

 

 

This situation is not a simple practical joke. If there was a fire or some other type of emergency, then the people in the room need to get out fast. Having your door roped shut would prohibit this.

 

As others have stated, the SPL needs to be supported by the Scoutmaster. If the SPL feels that these boys should lose their leadership positions, then he needs to stress this point to the Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster should back up the SPL in this regard.

 

Bob White, do you feel revoking leadership positions is a punishment? I think this is definitely the responsibility of the SPL and Scoutmaster. If a scout is not earning his leadership role, then he needs warned once about the consequences. If he fails again, then it is not necessarily punishment, but the scout's failure to earn his leadership role.

[jjshoe43@hotmail.com]

as a scoutmaster, i have to agree with bob white. we had a bully problem in our troop, and had the unusual situation of the boy having no living parents. his grandparents had their handsfull already and had enrolled him in scouting for the scouting principles. but with multiple incidences of bullying, i went to our committee and explained the ongoing problem. they, after talking to a representative of our sponsoring organization, talked to the grandparents. unfortunately they pulled their scout from the troop, but we did set policy on how we were going to handle ongoing problems in the future.

[Eagledad]

Bad choice of words I guess. Controlling the situation if you want. Sending the scout home, sending out of the room to the SPL or SM, sending them off away from the group is a few of the methods of controlling the situation. Also our PLCs have asked the scout to write an oppolgy, with the parents approval. Depending on the circumstances, I have seen the PL ask the offending scout to help at KP or retrive water the rest of the campout to keep him busy when he contiues to be a problem. He may be asked to sit out an activity dependning on the problem and situation. Our point to the scouts is get them out of the situation so the leaders can continue their job and prevent further disruption. If a scout does something away from camp or hurts another scout, the SM will confere with other adults and the SPL. Thee SPL is usally included unless it is something we need to keep private. Punshment? Let's say motivation to change.

 

It is interesting that I have get several request about disapline in every Scoutmaster Specific Class I have taught. One area that is lacking in todays BSA materal is down to earth suggestions for controlling behavoir. Oh there is some out there, but not near enough to answer the basic problems most unit leaders run into. I have not presented anything yet because it needs to be supported by BSA materal, I am seeking ideas from council, but they want me to lead and see where it goes. A chicken or the egg type thing. I think I'm the chicken. I won't use the word punish.

 

Barry

[Bob White]

There is no such thing as a born leader. leadership is a skill that is learned. In the BSA it is the SM's job to teach it. Like any skills that children try to learn there will be mistakes made.

 

As an adult I did not give the scout the leadership position, the other scouts did. If they want to re-elect a new leader that is their right as the voters, just as adults can re-call an elected official. Remember scouting is a reflection of adult responsibilities and civics for young people to learn from.

 

I always tell scouts as they join that they are expected to live by the Oath and Law at all times in order to participate. If you do not behave in a scout-like manner you will be sent home and are free to return whenever you feel you are ready to behave according to the Oath and Law.

 

I tell them they will be sent home not as a punishment to them but because of my responsibility to protect the scouts in the troop. A scout who does not follow the Oath and Law will cause an accident that will in some way injure themselves or others and I do not want that to happen. As soon as they are ready to behave in a manner that does not endanger anyone they are welcome to return.

 

I would never volunteer my time to punish other peoples children, and the BSA neither teaches or expects you to do that.

 

Bob White

 

[Bob White]

"One area that is lacking in todays BSA materal is down to earth suggestions for controlling behavoir."

 

I don't see it lacking at all. I see the entire scouting program as a method to control behavior. It just doesn't have options for punishment. We have over 1.3 million leaders. If you set any methods for punishment it would be abused. Heck its abused already.

 

The only rule needed is in the Guide to Safe Scouting.

1. You have a responsibility to protect scouts from harming themselves and others. 2. A Scout who needs to be punished should be brought to the unit committee with his parents or guardians to find a resolution to the behavior. If needed the chartering organization can remove his membership from the troop.

 

If you learned anything else in Scout Leader Training then shame on the trainers for not following the syllabus, and the methods of scouting. There has NEVER been any scout leader training that included ANYTHING on how to punish other peoples children.

 

Make sure they have an active hands on program, train junior leaders, and let everyone know that each person is expected to behave like a scout to be around scouts. Read section one of the Guide to Safe Scouting titled Members Responsibilities.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Thank You Bob!!..We recently had a hitting incident in which both boys were sent home by our Scoutmaster. I was unaware that it's the troop committee that does the punishment, it would appear that re-reading the Guide to Safe Scouting is in order. Actually I'm just an ASM and will bring this to the attention of our S.M.

[Twocubdad]

We're splitting some pretty narrow semantic threads here. All the "methods for controling behavior" sure sound like punishment to me.

 

Certainly, serious infractions should be handled as you describe. But in Pamalam's situation, don't you think it would be appropriate for the SPL to assign the offending Scouts additional kitchen duty to make up for the assignments they missed, or something similar? This may be controlling the situation, but if you are one of the two scouts, I bet you think of it as punishment.

 

As you say, every scout has the responsibility to behave in scout-like manner as represented in the Oath and Law. But should't there be consequences if they don't? How is turning to scouts in to their parents or the troop committee consistent with boy led?

 

Learning to handle problems at lowest appropriate level is an important principle of leadership these boys need to learn. They also need to learn when situations are above their level of competence. I wouldn't expect the 11-year-old PL of the new scout patrol to do much to handle discipline problems, but I would expect a well-trained SPL to be able to deal with minor infractions.

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Bob White]

Define "deal with". There are too many variations to deal with effectively and secure the safety and welfare of the scout. Not to mention keep in the the rules of Youth Protection.

 

Our purpose is to teach ethical decision making and leadership to scouts. Not to punish children who do not act like scouts. A scout who makes a bad decision to not act in a scout like manner needs to be returned to his parents or guardians until he feels he can act like a scout.

 

BW