Dad crusades against God in school

[GernBlansten]

From the logic of some here, I'd say everyday without religion in school is Athiests Day!

[Gonzo1]

BrentAllen,

Only on days that end with "Y"

 

Is this the same Merlyn who hates any mention of God in schools?

 

Attention Moderator

* * * * Brief pause from self imposed communications ban * * * *

Merlyn,

"PS: Gonzo1, I don't care who you were addressing, your statement was ludicrous. And you seem to approve of the Russian Orthodox Church's efforts to get their god into government schools in Russia -- I prefer religious freedom instead of having state schools impose some official religion."

 

The Merlyn I know who posts here does NOT believe in religious freedom, but rather religious prohibition.

 

Religious freedom would mean that a Bible Club could meet at school and anyone (who meets membership requirements) could attend, the Ladie's Bridge Club could too. Even scouts could meet there, because you now claim to believe in religious freedom. I do not approve of government sanctioned religion. If I choose to be a Methodist, so be it, if you want to be ______ religion, good for you! My problem is when the school bends over backward to encourage these muslim kids to pray. If they are encouraged, my kid better be too. But, since my kid is prohibited, they should be too.

 

sticky wicket, eh?

 

Freedom of religion would mean that Skokie, IL ( a Jewish community) could put up a Menora or almost any town in the Bible Belt can put up a Nativity scene, but we can't, because someone might be offended, I'm offended that someone else is offended and now I can't enjoy our town's usual display.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

You guys aren't playing along. You are supposed to say, "Which day is Atheist Day?"

 

Answer: Check Psalm 14:1 or Psalm 53 and see if you can figure it out.

 

Yes, it's some of that Bible humor. :-)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

The Merlyn I know who posts here does NOT believe in religious freedom, but rather religious prohibition.

 

Well, that certainly isn't me.

 

Religious freedom would mean that a Bible Club could meet at school and anyone (who meets membership requirements) could attend, the Ladie's Bridge Club could too. Even scouts could meet there, because you now claim to believe in religious freedom.

 

I always have. And, if you'll bother to READ what I've written about scouts MEETING in public schools (as opposed to being CHARTERED by public schools), you'll see I've stated that they CAN, assuming the school is open to outside groups.

 

I do not approve of government sanctioned religion.

 

Then what did you mean when you wrote earlier in this thread:

We win the Cold War and triumph over the Soviets, We kick God out of school, they put God in school.

The above seems to be a reference to the Russian Orthodox Church's efforts to get state schools to promote their religion, and you seem to approve.

 

My problem is when the school bends over backward to encourage these muslim kids to pray.

 

I agree that schools shouldn't encourage kids to pray, whether by having moments of silence when they are "supposed" to pray (either in the morning, for Christians, which just happens to be when most schools conducted prayers illegally, or in the afternoon for Muslims, as Carver Elementary used to do). Nor do I think schoolteachers should tell students that a moment of silence is time for praying, as Croft says happened.

 

Freedom of religion would mean that Skokie, IL ( a Jewish community) could put up a Menora or almost any town in the Bible Belt can put up a Nativity scene

 

No, towns do not have first amendment rights; citizens have rights. Towns do NOT have a right to promote "their" religion.

 

If a town has an open forum, CITIZENS can put up menorahs or nativity scenes, and anyone else can put up whatever they like. Equal freedom for all, right? If a TOWN decides what religious symbols are put up, and which ones are NOT put up, that is NOT religious equality, that's the majority religion being promoted by the government, which is not religious freedom.

(Although the supreme court, when it was made up of all Christians, ruled that a menorah isn't a religious symbol, so a town might be able to get away with just a menorah, but that's due to a boneheaded ruling)

 

because someone might be offended

 

No, the issue is never who is offended, because not being offended is not a right. This tells me you don't even know what the first amendment covers. Offense is actually *protected* by the first amendment, since people have the right to say things that are offensive.

 

I'm offended that someone else is offended and now I can't enjoy our town's usual display.

 

Your TOWN does not have any first amendment rights to infringe; towns have powers, citizens have rights. You, personally, can put up a nativity scene on your own property. You and the town council do not have the right to spend tax money and use government property to promote YOUR religion.

 

YOU do not believe in religious freedom; you want your town to promote your religion.

[evmori]

Merlyn for religious freedom! That's funny!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes Ed, I am. You, on the other hand, call atheists who follow the US legal system and try to get public schools to obey the law by exercising their right to a court hearing "terrorists".

[evmori]

Terrorist tactics, Merlyn. Maybe you should read the chronology in the 1st post of this thread. 15 complaints in less than a 3 year period! And Mr. Croft refused comment for the story! Guess his complaints speak for themselves. He doesn't want his daughter to get fliers to take home for a Bible club nor does he want the Scouts to be able to meet at the school. And he is constantly at the school looking for stuff! Doesn't he work? A teacher wearing an Abeline Christian shirt! Terrorist tactics! Makes no difference if this guy is an atheist or a member of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes! Yep this guy is all about freedoms as long as they agree with his point of view! And let's not forget the basis of all his tirades, the fiction novel 1984!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes Ed, going through proper legal channels is not "terrorist tactics", no matter how much you try to disparage atheists. How nasty of them, following US law! Just more of your idiotic right-wing hysteria.

[Gonzo1]

I had almost forgotten what it was like to have EVERY sentence and phrase dissected with scalpel like precision.

 

I am opposed to any government proclaiming a particular denomination as the denomination for all citizens. If Russia requires that all citizens practice the Russian Orthodoz faith (religion), I'm opposed. If a school offers or has a moment of silence, I'm OK with that. If the PTA or similar organization begins the meeting (with or without students and parents present) I'm OK with that. I'm also OK with student lead prayer at football games (let's pray that no one gets hurt - not praying for the win) I'm OK too. I'm OK with Bible Club, Chess Club, most other clubs, I'm not OK with clubs that might not be appropriate for kids.

 

I might agree with the technical difference between towns rights and powers. If one assumes a state has "rights", towns do too. By extension of representation, town have rights. Most displays are harmless anyway. If you don't like the cross, look away.

 

you said "No, the issue is never who is offended, because not being offended is not a right. This tells me you don't even know what the first amendment covers. Offense is actually *protected* by the first amendment, since people have the right to say things that are offensive." Actually, if someone is offended by "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, there's now a movement to remove "under God". Someon was offended by the big cross in southern Califnornia, same thing, someone is trying to remove it.

 

I think it's OK for a town to put up signs that say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" and Happy Easter too. Someone is offnded that Merry Christmas signs go up, now they must come down because someone is offended that tax payer dollars are used. You know what? I'm offended that tax payer dollars are used to widen a perfectly good road or adding sidewalks along a road or changing perfectly good traffic signals, we now have new traffic lights, there was nothing wrong with the ones we had. So, don't waste $$ on that. The point is, someone got his feelings hurt - too bad.

 

I AM for freedom of religion, I don't want Gainesville to promote Methodism over Judiaism (sp) or catholicism or atheism.

 

I'm wondering if the Merlyn of these last few posts is an imposter.

 

Merlyn, for further comments, send me a PM

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Moderator - communications ban back ON.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

I had almost forgotten what it was like to have EVERY sentence and phrase dissected with scalpel like precision.

 

Well, if nearly every sentence you write contains something that needs a reply, I think it's a good method to clearly lay out where disagreements lie. This is why I ask people to be specific in their arguments instead of being vague.

 

Now, if you don't like that, I can just say I disagree with some of your positions vis-a-vis religion & public schools, and I still don't know what you were referring to regarding Russia letting god into their schools. That's another case where being specific would help clarify things. The only recent news I'm aware of in connection with Russian schools and religion is the Russian Orthodox Church attempts to have schools teach their religious tenets.

 

Your view that town officials should be able to promote their religion at public expense is not what I would call religious freedom; I would call it religious oppression. No, "look away" does not remove the problem of public officials abusing their authority to promote their religion. By the way, I'd be opposed to a town erecting something like a sign saying "gods are myths", too. Religious freedom and all that.

 

Newdow's "under god" cases are based on a parent's right to teach their own children regarding religion -- when public schools have their children parrot "under god" every morning for years, the state is instilling a message that the parent may not agree with, and which conflicts with the religious message that parent wants to instill in their own child. Offensiveness has nothing to do with it.

 

The cross removal is another case of the state promoting religion. Again, offensiveness has nothing to do with the lawsuit.

 

And your offense is likewise no basis for a lawsuit. Go ahead and try to file a lawsuit saying you're merely offended by something and see how far you get.

 

I AM for freedom of religion, I don't want Gainesville to promote Methodism over Judiaism (sp) or catholicism or atheism.

 

Wait, are you saying Gainesville can erect a Christian cross or not? Isn't that promoting Christianity?

 

Should Gainesville have the legal authority to erect a cross? A sign saying "Jesus is Lord"? A sign saying "Obey Pope Benedict"?

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself; if towns can decide to put up symbols, who are you to limit it to a vague promotion of monotheism vs. Christianity vs. Catholicism?

 

I'm wondering if the Merlyn of these last few posts is an imposter.

 

Why? Because you improperly stated what my position was, and instead tried to demonize me as being against religious freedom? And when I shellacked you, and pointed out how your own views were anything but compatible with religious freedom?

 

Merlyn, for further comments, send me a PM

 

No. You insulted me in public, we'll debate in public.

[Gonzo1]

I'm sorry if you feel "insulted".

You insult almost all of us here nearly daily.

now, take it private.

 

[evmori]

Merlyn,

I am not disparaging atheists! It wouldn't make any difference if Mr. Croft were a Presbyterian! His tactics are terrorist in nature! He wants all reference to God removed from the public school his children attend! Complaining about a teacher wearing an Abeline Christian shirt! Does the man realize the teacher might be an alum or have a child that attends that school? Or is he so blinded he can't see past his nose! People like Mr. Croft give anyone or thing they are associated with a bad name! If I was one of the parents who had a child in the same school, I would start to wonder why this guy is hanging around the school grounds so much! It's almost stalker like!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

No, I'll argue in public or not at all. If you don't have the courage to argue your beliefs in public, I see no reason to argue privately.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, you certainly are disparaging atheists, your whining denials notwithstanding. Calling someone who properly goes through legal channels as using "terrorist tactics" also means you hate the US legal system for some reason.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

send me a PM, I'll give you my phone number, THEN, we can further discuss the matter or any matter.

 

Tone cannot be transmitted in type.

 

I find it hard to believe that you are now for religious freedom.