What to do about invisible scout

[matuawarrior]

Ditto to all the great advice for Chucklehead.

 

Scout Troops and Venture Crews are Youth Led. As a Scoumaster and Crew Advisor if I wanted to have the adults run the program. I'd pack my bags and start a sports team.

 

Matua

 

[chucklehead1985]

Well,

I'm going to try to approach on a professional level.

 

First I will address every question that was asked frome very person EVERY QUESTION, remeber freedom of Speech, these are my views and soley mine.

 

Then I will conclude this post with a summary of my goals and Ideas.

 

Here I go.............

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To Eagledad>Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2003: 9:34:24 PM

 

My Reply to questions:

Eagledad: what do you think Patrol Method is?

Me: I think the patrol method is mini scout troops centrally located into one troop, if you do the patrol method you are simply wasting money into seperate gear for each patrol why must you buy more gear when you can form everyone into one group, the only reason we use patrol method is the phone chain for important info it organizes the troop, thats what I think about it and how we/I use it.

 

Eagledad:What part of Patrol method do you not like, and why?

Me: I dislike the fact, as stated above, it breaks up the unity of the Troop if you turn your troop into a full Patrol method, everyone becomes seperated where as one Troop everyone is one, for example when we go on Camporrees through our District, our whole troop or everyone on the campout becomes one patrol, its alot easier that way, and by far more effective.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bob White>Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2003: 9:34:24 PM

 

Bob White:If OGE's troop was older would that automatically establish that it has a better program?

Me: Yes it would because, that just shows its methods of doing things withstood the test of time.

 

Bob White:If your troop was older would it?

Me: Yes it definately would, for the same reason as above.

 

Bob white:So if not age and Eagles how is a scout program evaluated?

Me: The prgram is evaluated on the basis of the morals thought, as it has been for awhile and will continue to be.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~dan>Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2003: 9:42:49 PM

 

dan: Do you fell your troop is boy run?

Me: Definately it is, it is easier from my observations for a scout to talk to another scout, when the parents get involved they put everything on the adult level.

 

dan: Could it be better?

Me: Yes it could be better EVERYONE/EVERYTHING can use improvement

 

dan: If you do not follow the patrol method, what method do you follow?

Me: The method we use has already been stated and, YES IT WORKS VERY WELL

 

dan: Do you have a special handbook that does not use the patrol method, requirements to camp and cook for your patrol?

Me:We cook as a Troop, saves money and keeps everyone as stated UNITED and not slpit into didfferent Areas.

 

dan: Do you know what the goal of Scouting is?

Me: I could kinda take this as an offense because, if I'm SPL then obviously I know what the goals of Scouting is, the goal is to teach new skills and divide the CREAM OF THE CROP with the garbage, believe me I back up all the MORALS of scouting, once someone made fun of me because I'm a scout, I in turn replied, I bet you havent Snorkeled in the Florida keys and Hiked the Black Hills if Souht Dakota, His reply was a quick walk away, He knew I was right, scouitng offers ALOT that no other organization can offer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

IN CONCLUSION

 

Scouting has alot to offer, no matter HOW THE GROUP IS RUN and yes I do think you can judge a troop on the amount of Eagles and if it has lasted the TEST of time. I have been involved with scouting since aTiger Cub and will be completing my Eagle Project Next month. I have been to great places with scouting that I could not have gone to any other way.

 

Remember once a SCOUT ALWAYS A SCOUT!!!!!!!!

[Bob White]

Hi chucklehead,

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. But you have to remember that you are seeing the program from a different vantage point. There are some things about the program that you have not yet learned or been exposed to.

 

Let me try to explain.

 

The patrol method is not mini troops. The patrol is a small natural size group for a boy to lead. Tthink about the number of friends you hang with. Most boys have 4 or 5 good friends, and theyy take turns leading depending on the situation. A troop is not divideed into patrols, Patrols gather to form troops. Baden-Powell said that the patrol method is not one way to run a troop it is the only way to run a troop. the patrol method is what allows everyone to have a specific responsibility and for elected patrol leaders to form a leader council to plan and carry out the scouts chosen activities.

 

It is not the committee's job to plan the program and never has been. it is the committee's job to support the decisions of the patrol Leaders council. That has been what separates scouting from every other youth activity for the last 92 years.

 

If you think about it the patrol method uses exactly the same amount of equipment as no patrols. It takes 12 two-man tents to haouse 24 scouts regardless of the number of patrols. 24 people need 24 plates any way you look at it. But the patrol method allows for scouts to elect leaders and lead scouts. Imagine the NFL trying to organize activities and games if there was just one big team instead of smaller groups.

 

You said "Bob White:If OGE's troop was older would that automatically establish that it has a better program?

Me: Yes it would because, that just shows its methods of doing things withstood the test of time.

 

That might be true if it was always the same program and always the same leader. But it's not. In the decades your troop has existed it has had several leaders and each was different in addition the scouting program has evolved over time. The skills you learn today are not the skills that existed just a few years back. Even the ranks have changed. For years Eagle wasn't even a rank and Life Scout came before Star. So the only thing proven by a long lived troop is the committment of the charter organization and the scouting community to keep it the troop going.

 

What is the goal of scouting. You said "to teach new skills and divide the CREAM OF THE CROP with the garbage I'm sorry but if that is what your leaders have lead you to believe then the program has failed you.

 

The mission of scouting is to give young people the skills they need to make ethical decisions throughout their life based on the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

The leaders on this thread have meant you no harm. Their concern is that every youth in scouting has the opportunity to experience a real scouting program. Their was no intent to upset you or insult your unit or leaders. Some of the things you wrote however sent up some red flags due to our experience. We genuinely want you to have a great scouting experience. Our frustration is not with you for not understanding or using the methods of scouting, but with adult leaders who do not help scouts understand and use them.

 

A friend in Scouting,

Bob White

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[mk9750]

Chucklehead:

 

I too would like to both congratulate you on your enthusiastic attitude toward Scouting, and also comment about what you are missing.

 

Until about a year and a half before my oldest son entered Boy Scouts, our Troop sounded like it was just like yours. Patrol leaders only existed to have a patch on their shoulder and a position of leadership, the Scoutmaster made practically all the decisions, usually presented to the boys by the SPL to make it look like they were boy led. Because the youth leadership didn't decide their own course, leading was a series of laying down rules and punishments to get the guys to do what the SPL passed on from the Scoutmaster. All tenting, cooking, and meetings were centered on the larger Troop, and the only real value to the patrol method was just as you say, a phone chain.

 

The Troop had been divided into artificial patrols, trying to balance each patrol with the same number of 16 year olds, etc,. and the same number of 2nd Class Scouts as the other Patrols. Why they made the effort to do this, no one really understood. But the one thing that was obvious to the man who eventually became Scoutmaster was that there had been NO training.

 

He paid, out of his pocket, for himself and three other adults, including the current SM, to go to Scoutmaster Fundamentals training. It opened the eyes of everyone there, except the then current SM, who refused to accept that he wouldn't be in charge anymore. After a ceremonious resignation, the Troop was left with thre adults who mostly understood the system.

 

Next effort was to get the youth leaders trained. The "old gaurd" SPL wanted no part of it, so the new SM gathered some of the older guys together, offered to pay (out of his own pocket again) for JLT. These guys came back with the lights turned on. They would not be stopped from turning the troop into A BOY SCOUT TROOP.

 

The most obvious interference the SM had from then on was in insisting that our new "Troop" begin to wear complete uniforms. Up until then, a BSA shirt, open all the way down, and jeans or shorts, was the uniform. Some of the oldest guys decided they didn't want to be a part of a troop that needed uniforms, so they quit. Our SM says this was the hardest thing he's ever done in Scouting, letting guys go, but he knew that for the boys in the Troop to get the very best Scouting had to offer, he had to begin insisting that the youth leadership, and through them, all boys, begin working toward the Aims of Scouting, using the Methods of Scouting, one of which, as I am sure you know, because you've been trained, is Uniforming.

 

After many PLCs, the boys determined how they would split up the Troop into real patrols. I would have giiven it no chance of working, I'll be honest, but I would have been wrong. The three guys who made up the PLC at the time decided that they would map where everyone pitched their tents on the next Troop campout. They would form two patrols, each with the 10 guys who camped closest to each other. It is only later that I have learned that this included two major aspects of the patrol method: Forming a patrol of buddies who want to spend their Scouting time together, and camping in patrols. OK, the the second was done backwards this time, but the purpose is obvious, I think: If a group of guys tented close together, they probably are a natural patrol anyway.

 

When my son started, the Troop grew from 20 to 31 boys. The year after that, it grew again to 38. And the year after that, it grew to 48. We were at a point that we considered capping membership at 50, just because we didn't know if the youth leadership could handle so many guys. Although they have struggled off and on for the last couple of years with our size, they generally do a fine job.

 

And the benefit of our Troop moving to a real Patrol method? It's the only way for a young man to get the experience to lead properly. I know to you I will sound like I am preaching, but practically no teenager has the ability to lead more than 8 - 12 guys. Trying to do more leads to being a boss, not a leader. That is why in a real Patrol method, the SPL's activity is rarely if ever leading the Troop, it is leading the Patrol Leaders (PLC). In addition, along with proper training, running a Troop using the Patrol Method is easier. There truly is less work, less to stay on top of (or in front of, as our PLC phrases it), and more people among whom the work can be spread.

 

As a reletively new member this to forum (welcome, by the way), you may not have had the oppurtunity to experience the wisdom that some many of the senior forum members posess and share with us. I mean to leave no one out, but particlarly Bob White, Eagledad, Old Grey Eagle, and Koreascouter have been unbelievable resources to me since I have become active in this forum. I don't mean to say I always agree with them: I don't. But their opinions and ideas ALWAYS are worth my time to consider seriously. I think they would be for you, too.

 

A few times while debating issues here, I have seen others (Bob White says it most) say something like "your program may work well, but if you're not using the Aims and Methods of Boy Scouting, than you're not a Boy Scout Troop" (my apoligies for the liberties I have taken with the quote). Despite the BSA logo on your uniform, if you are not using the Patrol Method, even though you understand it, I don't think you should consider yourself a Boy Scout Troop.

 

I wsh you and your Troop well. It sounds to me like you and 60 or so of your buddies have what it takes to become a real Boy Scout Troop if you put some effort into it. It's not the easiest thing to do, and I'll predict if you try, you'll lose some of your guys. But, as Bob and others pointed out, it's not really the size of your Troop that determines your success (although I understand and agree with you that it is one INDICATOR). It is the number of boys who become men, armed with the life skills and strenght of character that active participation in a quality program gives them. What I think you might not realize, is that the BSA establishes the criteria for a quality Boy Scout program, not you or the members of your Troop. I agree that you all determine your happiness in the Troop by how many join and stay. But so do many other groups, good and bad (I hesitate using this example, but the Ku Klux Klan comes to mind). But that certainly doesn't mean you run a quality Boy Scout program, any more than the KKK does.

 

Although I am long winded (AGAIN!!!!), I hope you get the essence of my message. It works! Let it work for you!

 

Good luck to you!

 

Mark

[Eagledad]

Hi Chucklehead.

I have to say, you bring to light a different sort of Troop. I know you said there are other troops like yours, but Ive not seen one. If you wouldnt mind, could you tell me a little more about your program?

 

The original design of a troop is actually a group of patrols, not the other way around. The intent was putting a small manageable group of boys together to practice real life lessons of leadership, follow-ship, teamwork, democracy, diplomacy and compassion. One definition of leadership is motivating the group to accomplish a common task. It sounds to me like what you have is a gigantic patrol, not a troop without patrols. I see nothing wrong with your program anymore than a small troop of eight scouts running the same program. What I dont see is how you can do it without the adults running the program sort of like a Cub Scout pack. I am sure you arent running an over-aged Cub Pack, but this is where you can help me understand better.

 

The ideal patrol is about eight scouts give or take a few depending on the abilities and experience of the scouts. There are several studies that show even adults cant manage or lead more than 12 to 15 people without loosing efficiency and maintaining a positive attitude in the group. That is why a leadership structure in most companies is design so that managers directly work with a small group of workers and other managers. Anymore than that and you loose the ability to understand and hear the folks you lead. You become less of leader who motivates through positive teamwork and use more of a dictator type leadership to accomplish your task. While there are appropriate times for dictator type leadership, it is not appropriate when it means intimidating or forcing someone against their will for your satisfaction. Here is what I cant see in your troop. HOW do you guys get your troop organized to start a meeting. In our Troop the SPL tells his patrol leaders to get their patrols together and give their attention to the SPL. Our SPL doesnt have to yell, he only needs to ask his leaders to do their job and get their patrols attention. In fact in most cases, we see yelling as a sign of failing leadership. We have an active troop of about 60 scouts, so its about the same as yours. In our troop, you will not see the adults help the SPL because they dont belong in any of the scouts patrols. The adults dont put up their sign until the SPL puts his up. I am trying to imagine how you get your 60 scouts attention without patrol leaders to help you. In your words, paint me a picture of you getting the attention of 60 scouts and starting the meeting. Who are your helpers? Where are the adults and do they help you start and run the meeting? How do you keep control? Im very interested.

 

That will help me understand your program a lot. One other thing, you said the goal of scouting is to teach new skills and divide the cream of the crop from the garbage. What does that mean? It is true that four percent of the population are natural leaders while the rest are instinctively followers. But scouting is one of the few programs in our society where a boy can be from that 96 percent of followers and still become a great leader. Is that what you mean or do you have a different idea of scouting and leadership.

 

Hey thanks for teaching me about your troop. It very interesting to say the least and maybe we can all learn something from your program.

 

Barry

 

[chucklehead1985]

I've explained our troop a number of times I REFUSE to explain it again (for lack of time and better things to do).

 

Another point I would like to call attention to is this comment by mk9750, and I quote, "Despite the BSA logo on your uniform, if you are not using the Patrol Method, even though you understand it, I don't think you should consider yourself a Boy Scout Troop."

 

Well from my point of view which has been stated numerous times, "If you are using the Patrol method mk9750, I dont think YOUR Troop should be called a Boy Scout Troop. I'm not sure if I shoudl take offense to that or what........But I tihnk I'll take the offensive side to that comment!

 

Another point of offense is this comment once again by mk9750, and again I quote, "I wsh you and your Troop well. It sounds to me like you and 60 or so of your buddies have what it takes to become a real Boy Scout Troop if you put some effort into it."

 

I like the fact that you have the right to decide whther my troop has what it takes to be a real scout troop

 

 

To "BARRY":

OK I will outline the Troops overall structure, or in your opionio LACK THEREOF.

I.Scoutmaster

A. tells SPL once to get job done

II. SPL

A. Gets jobs done that the Scoutmaster has designated

b. Gets calls out to patrol leaders about important info

C. runs meetings based on neede reqs and events that are approaching

 

 

As I have already described based on my opinion, The Patrol Method, as you see it, is over rated.PERIOD THE END

 

Thank You for your time

[Eagledad]

Hi Again

 

I'm not sure we are to the "lack thereof" place. I'm just trying to learn how your troop can work.

 

A couple questions from your last post:

 

1.You said you get calls out to the patrol leaders for input, how many patrol leaders do you have?

 

2.Does the SM help you run the meetings or do you write your own agenda and run it yourself?

 

3.Who thinks up the activities, just the SM? Do you have an annual planning meeting and who attends that if you do have one?

 

4.What kind of activities do you all do? Campout every month? Any High Advernture type stuff and where? Where do you go to summer camp?

 

You describe a very interesting troop and it must have something going for it if so many scouts enjoy the program. Thanks for you input.

 

Barry

 

[dan]

chucklehead1985No offense intended.

You stated the goal of scouting was to "divide the CREAM OF THE CROP with the garbage"

To put it bluntly, Scoutings goal could be said, IMHO, to take the g******* (sorry could not use that word) and turn it the cream of the crop

This is an forum to exchange ideas and thoughts, to post here you need to keep an open mind (and sometimes have a thick skin) and try to look at both sides of the ideas and or issues. Stick around and you may learn a few new things and/or teach a few new things.

dan

[chucklehead1985]

We have 5 patrols and 2 Venture crews.......

 

I write my own agenda and run it myself.......

 

The activites are developed through a joing effort, based on what....We dont use planning meetings.....

 

THe Activites we do are numerous......We go Camping every month, and summer camp is out of State every other year, We have been to South Dakota, Kentucky and Pennsylvania......The older scouts go on High adventure outings Like Florida Snorkleing for a week.We also do local community service projects for our Chartered organization and other local clubs like Kiwanis, etc.

 

 

 

what I meant by that comment dan is scouting divides the boys in life from the men...Scouting teaches discipline that no other organization can other then the armed forces can teach.....Scouting truly sorts the good from the bad

[Eagledad]

Cool! Your troop doesn't sound so different from ours.

 

You said that you do JLT type training. How often do you do it?

 

Do you give your Patrol leaders any kind of specail training for their job? If you do, who does the training?

 

I'm guessing you meet once a week. Our basic meeting agenda goes something like this;

Opening

Patrol Corners

Program

Game

Closeing and SM Minute

 

How does your meeting agenda look?

 

Where are your crews going next?

 

Barry

[chucklehead1985]

To learn more about our Troop please visit our website:

http://troop1151.divinechild.org

 

 

[dan]

chucklehead1985

IMHO I would turn your statement around to fit what I thought the BSA is trying accomplish.

Scouting should turn the bad to the good

Not

Scouting truly sorts the good from the bad

 

I realize that this is not possible every time, but I believe that should be one of all troops goals.

When I say good, I am not talking about good knot tiers, good campers, or good tent pitchers.

[Bob White]

Lets look at the steps Chucklehead provided on how his troop runs and compare it to the method of operation taught in the Scoutmaster Handbook, the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook and other BSA training and program resources.

 

Lines in italics are from Chucklehead's post, bold are scouting methods.

 

I.Scoutmaster Scoutmaster

A. tells SPL once to get job done Trains Junior Leaders, and learns the needs and characteristics of all youth members

II. SPL SPL

A. Gets jobs done that the Scoutmaster has designated

Chairs the Patrol Leaders Council that determines Troop activities.

b. Gets calls out to patrol leaders about important info

Meets monthly with the elected Patrol Leaders (at the Patrol Leaders Council meeting) to review upcoming activities and coordinate patrol assignments with the patrol leaders, and to evaluate past activities to learn how to improve.

C. runs meetings based on neede reqs and events that are approaching

Oversees troop meetings and troop activity operations through the positive motivation of, and cooperation of, the Patrol Leaders who manage their own patrol.

 

The Scoutmaster's role is not to tell the SPL what to do but to teach him the leadership skills needed to lead the patrol leaders. The elected patrol leaders as representatives of their patrols determine the activities and through their own choice support those decisions. The SPL is not the boss of the troop but more the mentor of the Patrol Leaders who are each responsible for mentoring their patrols.

 

The Boy Scout program has never been about adults telling boys what to do but about training young people to make their own decisions and the opportunity to learn from those decisions.

 

Let's keep in mind that Chucklehead is the scout and not the scoutmaster. He can only practice the kind of scouting that his Scoutmaster employs. Which has been a re-occurring theme in so many threads. Scouting is much more than just doing things in a scout uniform. It is doing things in the scouting methods to achieve the aims and mission of the program.

 

I apologize if any of these posts have angered Chucklehead and wish him well as he approaches his Eagle Scout rank.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[chucklehead1985]

I dont think its right to start codeming my Scoutmaster, your bible AKA ht Scoutmasters Handbook, that you have "preached" from probably doesnt endorse this.

 

I'm sorry but thats just plain wrong, ripping on someone that isnt even a member of scouter.com and hasnt joined in on this conversation....

 

I'm sure other people would agree, that just isnt right. That would be like me making fun of your dad about something having to do with scouts, he isnt even a user of this board and its totally irrelevant and uncalled for.

 

I think you need to realize there ALOT and I mean alot of Troops that do it the way we do.......So just realize alot of people use this method.

[OldGreyEagle]

Chucklehead,

 

First let me apologize for my early rather "flip" posts about you and your troop.

 

There is something for you to consider, as you read the posts, take a look and see where these posters live, its all over the country. Then think to yourself, why would all these people, from all over the country all be saying the same thing?

 

I have to admire your stamina at hanging in there and answering all these posts in a quite lucent manner. I was sure you would read a few and never be heard from again, but you have the strength of your convictions which is great.