Atheists protest funds for churches

[acco40]

Merlyn,

 

Can you enlighten us at all about the group American Atheists, Inc.?

 

They sued the Detroit Downtown Development Authority which had planned a grant to three different "historical" churches in Detroit to be used as partial reimbursement for improvements the churches made to their properties. The AAI claims the churches should be paying for this, not taxpayers and brought up the issue of "separation of church and state (all, please spare us a diatribe about the constitution. Yes we all know that "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution but it is a legal precedent). A federal judge in Detroit will rule on this issue soon.

 

Now, taxpayers support fire departments and police departments which come to the aid of religious institutions (and hospitals, homes, schools, etc.). So, if a church is considered a "historical site" should taxpayer money be used for its upkeep? Interesting debate. The federal judges decision will have an effect on many other similar issues.

 

Here is a link for more info: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070719/NEWS06/707190348

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

You can find out about American Atheists from their website at www.atheists.org -- google not working for you today? By the way, this particular arrangement looks legal to me, as it was available to all property owners in the areas covered on the same terms.

[Trevorum]

Acco asks, "So, if a church is considered a "historical site" should taxpayer money be used for its upkeep?

 

IMO, yes, as long as the taxpayers are also paying for "upkeep" of other privately owned historic properties. If these grants are available - and are actually awarded - to the owners of other historic properties in Detroit then there would appear to be no issue.

[Beavah]

By the way, this particular arrangement looks legal to me, as it was available to all property owners in the areas covered on the same terms.

 

Yah, it should be, eh?

 

Now, does the suit also illustrate how some folks try to use "separation of church and state" as a mechanism for repressing religion and religious expression? Makin' religion the only thing that isn't allowed access to resources from the state...

 

I suspect defense of this suit will cost more than what the grants would have been.

 

Beavah

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

acco40, what do you think of this situation?

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=334259 [link may go stale soon]

 

A fee Elgin Area School District U-46 recently imposed on Scout troops could price the groups out of the district, troop leaders say.

 

U-46 recently sent out a letter to all Scout troops that rent district facilities, saying Scouts are now subject to the same facility fees that other nonprofit groups pay.

 

At least 26 Cub Scout packs, seven Boy Scout and an unknown number of Brownie and Girl Scout troops could face thousands of dollars in new fees annually - or find another place to meet.

 

"This is not right for everyone trying to do a good thing for the community," Cub Scout leader Randy Anderson of Bartlett told the school board Monday.

 

The district was forced to reconsider its policy, U-46 attorney Patrick Broncato said, after receiving a letter from a church group objecting to the fee when Scout troops were exempt.

...

Traditionally, the Scouts were treated as school-sponsored activities, like chess club or band, which use the facilities for free.

 

The letter from the church group prompted district officials to reclassify the Scouts, Broncato said. They now are under the same umbrella as Pee Wee Football, Little League, Kiwanis Clubs, Easter Seals and church groups.

 

Anderson said he would petition the district to treat the Scouts like a school group, since some troops are chartered with specific schools.

...

[packsaddle]

Interesting, the online article makes it a little clearer. I don't understand why people seem to think they are entitled to services and resources at no cost to themselves.

I see two ironies in the article. One is that a church complaint is behind the revision of the way fees are assessed. (maybe it's really an ACLU conspiracy )

The other is that so many people who claim to be so-called 'conservatives' seem to want something for nothing, and a government handout to boot.

One more for the collection....

[Beavah]

Not somethin' for nuthin', eh? From the description, that's a lot of tax-payin' families.

 

School district's position is fine, eh? So would the parents' (or the rest of da community's) position be when they choose to oppose the next school building or operatin' millage.

 

There's a problem with playin' hardball. Everybody loses.

 

The district should adopt the policy of the Mt. Pleasant, MI schools, which allows all youth/education-related NFP's free access, including the scouts. That one's survived appeal all the way to SCOTUS, and should be easy to adopt.

 

Beavah

 

[Venividi]

I live in the general vicinity of Elgin district U-46. I believe it is the 2nd or 3rd largest district in the state (Illinois). I suspect that they do not have the financial ability to make the schools available to all organizations at no charge. Their expenses are pretty high - they have over 100 administrators and teachers that were paid over $100,000 per year. Their budget likely already includes estimated revenue from renting facilities.

[kb6jra]

"I suspect defense of this suit will cost more than what the grants would have been.

 

Beavah"

 

That's the point usually, isn't it. Most anti-scout organizations will file suit for just that purpose, even knowing that they do not have a solid case. Happened to my old Council. ACLU filed suit because they received a public grant. Sued them and caused them to spend twice the amount on legal fees, then dropped the suit. Scum in my opinion, absolute scum (the ACLU, not the Council).

 

 

[Kudu]

I'm sure it is a minor inconvenience compared to the joy that floods over you when the BSA breaks the heart of a six-year-old who does not live up to your precious "religious principles."

 

I would love to watch Jesus separate the sheep from the goats on that issue!

 

Kudu

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

kb6jra writes:

ACLU filed suit because they received a public grant. Sued them and caused them to spend twice the amount on legal fees, then dropped the suit.

 

Would this be the lawsuit against the Old Baldy council for a $15,000 HUD grant (which requires nondiscrimination on the basis of, among other things, religion) that they used for their Scoutreach program, which discriminates on the basis of religion?

 

I hadn't heard it had been dropped; the Old Baldy council doesn't exist anymore, so maybe it needs to be refiled.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

A judge has ruled that some of the money was unconstitutional:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/sports-24/1186661104291250.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

DETROIT (AP) -- Some grants promised to three churches as part of a

program to clean up the city ahead of the 2006 Super Bowl were

unconstitutional, a federal judge has ruled.

 

U.S. District Judge Avern Cohn ruled Wednesday that the Detroit

Downtown Development Authority should not have awarded the churches

matching grants. He said it violated separation between church and

state because some of the money was spent on improving large signs and

stained glass windows containing religious imagery.

 

But Cohn ruled that most of the $725,000 was OK because any downtown

property owner was eligible to apply and the church used the grants to

help pay for improvements to lighting, landscaping and a steeple

clock.

...

 

acco40, since you're back and posting again, could you respond to my question about the Elgin school fee now applying to scout units?

[Gonzo1]

Acco,

It might be interesting to point out that this judge was appointed by Jimmy Carter.

 

Judge Cohn was appointed as a United States District Court Judge for the Eastern District of Michigan of Michigan by President Jimmy Carter effective October 9, 1979.