Venividi Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Reportedly, some states are meeting the No Child Left Behind objectives by making their benchmarks easier. See http://www.heritage.org/Research/Education/ednotes77.cfm Quotes from the aritcle: "The real problem is that No Child Left Behind actually put in place incentives for states to weaken their standards - making it more pressing for them to meet political objectives than to improve student achievement by objective measures." and "This has led states to simply lower the bar, as humorously articulated by Mr. Colbert: "Well, that sounds hard. So here's what I suggest: Instead of passing the test, just have kids pass a test. Eventually, we'll reach a point when math proficiency' means, you move when poked with a stick,' and reading proficiency' means, your breath will fog a mirror.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScout Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Just another example of how one size fits all government programs do not work in this vast country of ours. A shame to see no one realizes this and continues to advocate yet more programs, more taxes, and more spending to solve our problems . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I remember when my dyslexic son was having his his IEP (Individual Educational Program) writtem for 6th grade, there was talk about increasing his reading level 30 percent and comprehension 40 perent or some other percent. The teacher asked if I had any comment, I said I would rather the statement be "can read the back of a "kids" cereal box without having to ask "what's this word" more than 3 times. She clucked her tongue and expressed the thought it was too bad I didnt understand understand objective writing, I countered by saying it was too bad I did. The test's need to be practical applications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Personally I think we are doomed. Society has come to believe that only politicians can fix this problem. Yet, what expertise if any do most politicians have in education? To make that worse, politicians motivation is not for the youth, but for themselves. Why in the world we let them do it is beyound me. There is really no accountability because the politicians are gone when their failures are realized. The only way to fix the problem is get the parents back into the picture, but we have let the politicians do it for so long that most parents don't want the responsibility anymore. Just ask most teachers how hard it is to get parents to even get involved with their own kids. So we have to leave it up to those who are in it only for themselves. We are doomed. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venividi Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 I recall a conversation with one of my daughter's teachers, and that NCLB has driven them to "teach to the test", with one result being that there was some areas of the subject that he didn't have time to get to as a result. The concept may be good; it certainly has a great "feel good, warm fuzzies, its the right thing to do for kids" element to it, which makes it great for political sound bites. But implementation is darn near impossible without a whole bunch of unintended consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottteng Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I remember well the "expert" teacher conversations with my son's second grade teacher.Teacher "Make him do his work in class." Me Why is he failing? Teacher "No he gets A's on all the tests on Friday." Me Then give him some harder more challenging work to do in class. Teacher "No that would be rewarding him for not doing his class work." That is when I decided if I was going to be responsible for his disrespect of busy work in school anyhow that I might as well go whole hog and teach him at home. I purchased a computer based program and turned him loose when he finished his daily quota he could watch the tube play video games whatever he wanted. The state wants SAT tests yearly he is pretty consistent 90th percentile for his grade level after 4 years. The only thing he is low in is listening and I could have told them that. The boy is also a Star scout with so far 23 merit badges at 12 years old and also a computer whiz. Don't forget the expert said that Thomas A. Edison was addled and could never be taught. His mother thought otherwise and look where that has landed us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Both my kids are deaf (son 25 daughter 22). Did two IEP's a year. Early on my wife & I got tired of "everyone does this" IEP's. Had a 4 hour IEP for my son. Rewrote the entire thing. If we don't require our kids to stretch their academics, most will take the easy road. NCLP is the same as Zero Tolerance policies. Neither work. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I'm seeing a lot of whining and complaining but no solutions. When we started our family, we studied the local schools. We found the district that offered the best schools that we could find in the area and then we moved to that district. We subordinated EVERYTHING to getting the best for our children that we could find. The administration and school board were not exceptional in any way. However, because this particular district had a large number of families who DEMANDED a higher level of education, that is what we all got. These families took control of the educational process for their children and they got performance. Families who were poor or disinterested also benefitted. They were welcome. I live in a region that is sometimes ranked among the lowest in the country for most metrics regarding educational performance and yet, in our district my children were taught by some wonderfully talented teachers, many of whom had advanced degrees, PhD-level in many cases, for the subjects they taught. This outstanding set of opportunities happened because enough families demanded this level of service. And we supported it in many ways, not the least our own considerable time spent partipating actively in many of the school functions, not just sports. When I read statements such as "...one size fits all government programs do not work..." I respond, "Well DUH!" A casual glance around even a small subset of this vast country will reveal anything BUT a "one size fits all" educational system. What you will really find is a system that, yes, reflects political pressures borne unevenly. But it also reflects the results of vastly different levels of local support and demand for the kind of results that I think many of us want. In effect, "one size fits all" is hardly a reality...what we really have is exactly what we demand either through our actions or through inaction. The only generality I can draw is that mediocre investment usually generates mediocrity. That really IS "one size fits all". Yes, the states can dumb down their standards and many have. There are powerful pressures to do this coming from forces that operate from many different motives. But in the end their success in weakening standards is a result of good people doing nothing - of motivated people remaining idle. No one deserves to get something for nothing and if you want performance, you have to pay - both economically and personally with your time and efforts. When I survey the variability of education in the South, I see local populations getting precisely what they desire, as expressed through their investments (and this is more than money), or lack thereof. On the other hand, states such as SC, for example, which have some of the poorest schools and both some of the best and the worst performance, nevertheless have among the very highest standards in the nation, in spite of forces trying to destroy those standards. And how do they maintain this high bar? There are enough people willing to put forth the effort to make sure the bar remains at the high level it is. This isn't regional. Read the report. Three states often rank near the top for most of the comparisons: SC, WY, and MA. Vastly different populations and regions demanding the same thing and getting it. The people pretty much get what they want, if they are willing to put their investment (and I don't necessarily mean money) where their mouth is. Edited part: Barry, we're doomed only if we continue to just complain and point fingers, if we don't 'step up to the plate' and make a considerable personal effort. But that should go without saying no matter what. We take the first step toward that doom when we start thinking of government as 'them' rather than 'us'.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SequoiaWDL Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I wonder how many people can recall the name of any of their school board members, know who they are voting for when SB members are up for election, or name their Superintendent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venividi Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Packsaddle, Thank you for reminding us that we live in a democracy where we have the right and duty to participate. We can attend public meetings, serve on committees, run for school boards. I feel humbled to have to have been reminded of this, especially this week. You are correct, WE have more power and control than we sometimes think. Venividi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScout Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 But people have to want to take part in their government. It seems that the spirit of the early repubic has somewhat eclipsed. People just look to their government to see what they can get from it. The 18th Century Scottish legalist, Sir Alex Fraser Tyler wrote an interesting piece on democracy, "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.... The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from great courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependency back again to bondage." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I hope my words were taken as constructive. I apologize if they offended anyone. Education is a topic for which I have strong interests and I agree that it is frustrating to see how things are going. In many ways I share your concerns. However, I think there are ways to improve the situation...but it starts with families and interested parents and a society willing to take on this burden. It is the hard thing to do - but the easy stuff has already been done. TheScout's quote is very appropriate. It is essentially the same idea as the 'Tragedy of the Commons'. Prevention of that sad end for a democracy depends strongly on maintenance of an educated electorate. If we don't understand our individual and collective roles in a democracy, then completely selfish decisions are a predictable result. (This is one reason I'm skeptical of democratic success in countries that have poor levels of education.) I see education as the foundation for every aspect of our national future. Nothing could provide a long-term threat to this nation as profoundly as our failure to maintain both high educational standards and high performance. But we always have the means to control this if we want. Happy 4th to everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I reprint this here without the express permission of my wife,the author. She wrote this for a special ed class she is currently taking. No Child Left Behind, Oh! were that but the case. In order for Education to happen Learning must take place. Our legislature is so focused on the bottom end of the student body that it has all but forgotten the upper end. Gifted and talented children deserve to be Educated just as much as the Learning Disabled. According to Dr. Philip Powell, Assistant Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas, most gifted children know that they are different by the time they are five. Their development is uneven and out of step with their peers. Motor skills, especially fine motor, often lag behind cognitive conceptual abilities, particularly in preschool (Webb & Kleine, 1993). These children may see in their "mind's eye" what they want to do, construct or draw however, motor skills do not allow them to achieve the goal. Intense frustration and emotional outbursts may result. Feeling different from others is not exclusive to gifted children. We are all different and unique. We usually find a group of friends we fit into where we have similar interests and views. But for a gifted child, who has an extreme view of the world, there is much less chance of finding that group. They often have difficulty making and keeping friends, their advanced levels of ability may steer them toward older children. They may choose peers by reading books, the characters become their friends (Halsted, 1994). Such children are often thought of as "loners." The conflict between fitting in and being an individual may be quite stressful. Their sensitivity, empathy and desire to be accepted by others make them more vulnerable to criticism and peer rejection. In an interview for Harper Collins, Stephanie Tolan, childrens author and co-author of the award-winning book, Guiding the Gifted Child, said that she wrote about unusually brilliant children to help her own gifted son through his school years. Gifted children share most of the same needs as other children. The same developmental stages occur, often at a younger age (Webb & Kleine, 1993). Gifted children may face the same problems, such as family poverty, substance abuse, or alcoholism. Some needs and problems however, appear more often among gifted children such as impatience and the dislike of basic routine; probably because they acquire and retain information quickly. Because they emphasize truth, equity and fair play, they tend to worry or even fret about humanitarian concerns. Pre School and Kindergarten programs that break complicated subjects into simple pieces for children to understand often stress gifted children. Sequences may be too simple for minds, which thrive on complexity and challenge. Able to process huge quantities of information rapidly, gifted children may find nothing to interest or engage them in regular programs. Stephanie Tolan gives an analogy for this process. She compares it to feeding an elephant grass, one blade at a time. Not only will he die of malnutrition before you can get sufficient food into him, he is unlikely to realize you are trying to feed him at all. That single blade of grass is simply too small to notice. Self esteem issues may be particularly troublesome for gifted children because they are usually prone to perfectionism. Realizing their own potential and capabilities, these children may get the feeling that they should be able to do just about anything, and then become frustrated when they dont perform up to their own expectations. For example, not winning an award for the best science project may make the gifted child feel that he has let himself down. According to James T. Webb, Ph.D., because gifted children are able to consider the possibilities of how things might be they tend to be idealists. However, they are simultaneously able to see that the world is falling short of how it might be. Because they are intense, gifted children feel strongly the disappointment and frustration which occurs when ideals are not reached. Similarly, these children quickly spot the inconsistencies, arbitrariness and absurdities in society and in the behaviors of those around them. Traditions are questioned or challenged. For example, why do we put such tight sex-role or age-role restrictions on people? Why do people engage in hypocritical behaviors in which they say one thing and then do another? Why do people say things they really do not mean at all? Why are so many people so unthinking and uncaring in their dealings with others? How much difference in the world can one person's life make? When gifted children try to share these concerns with others, they are usually met with reactions ranging from puzzlement to hostility. They discover that others, particularly of their age, clearly do not share these concerns, but instead are focused on more concrete issues and on fitting in with others' expectations. Often by even first grade, these youngsters, particularly the more highly gifted ones, feel isolated not only from their peers, but also sometimes from their families as they find that others are not prepared to discuss such weighty concerns. Researchers have found a correlation between "overexcitability" and giftedness. Over his lifetime of clinical and academic work Kazimierz Dabrowski proposed his Theory of Positive Disintegration, which stated that people born with overexcitability had a higher level of "development potential" than others. After decades of research, it appears that overexcitability can actually be used to predict which kids might be gifted. While a bright child with overexcitability who is doing well in school might be labeled gifted, the same child underachieving in school, might be labeled ADHD instead. Many gifted students are underachievers. There is evidence to suggest that as many as 45% of identified gifted children with IQs above 130 have below average grades (Johnson, 1981). Researchers argue that the traits of gifted students, when expressed in a negative fashion, are nearly identical to the traits of ADHD. Teachers typically associate giftedness with students who are compliant and obedient. Thus, teachers are not inclined to believe that a child who is acting out might in fact be gifted (Reid, 1995). And while there are many things that can result in behavioral problems in gifted students, researchers argue that most behavioral problems are developed in response to inappropriate curriculum and instructional methods, or the social climate created by the teacher and classroom peers (Delisle 1987). Research has looked at the types of educational provisions for gifted children and how this can effect their social and emotional adjustment. Although there is controversy over ability-grouped programs and acceleration for the gifted, the results generally show positive effects for children's self esteem and achievement. Studies of gifted students, such as those conducted by Benbow and Stanley (1997), indicate that accelerated students are satisfied with their acceleration, and report enhanced achievement, motivation, increased friendship choices and greater enjoyment of school and learning. Students in full-time ability grouping programs commented on the quality of the friendships they had been able to develop with other students who shared their abilities and interests. Adams (1992) found that some form of homogeneous grouping benefits the most able and gifted students in terms of their academic achievement, as well as their attitudes concerning themselves as learners and regarding their school experiences. Gross (1993) found disturbingly low levels of social self esteem in highly gifted children whose placement in the mixed-ability classroom prevented them from developing supportive relationships with age-peers of similar ability and interests. Gross uses a clever analogy to help illustrate the impact of gifted children's 'educational fit' on their development. If the right educational provisions are not provided this may hinder their social, emotional and academic growth. If big fish are placed in ponds that are too small for them, and if they are kept there too long, they stop growing. (Gross, 1997, p.29). In an article from the Washington Post 12/27/05 Susan Goodkinin said that there are about three million gifted students in the US that are not getting what they need from the public education system. Programs for the gifted are disappearing in districts across the country because of budget cuts, shifting priorities and, some allege, because of the federal "No Child Left Behind" act. Critics of "No Child Left Behind" claim that the law's emphasis on the lowest performing students is leading districts to ignore gifted children. The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented (NRC/GT) reported the following facts; Many gifted elementary school students already know between 40 and 50% of the material to be covered in the class. Most gifted and talented students spend at least 80% of their time in a regular education classroom. According to a 1991 study, between 18 and 25% of gifted and talented students drop out of school. Gifted dropouts were generally from a lower socio-economic status family and had little or no access to extracurricular activities, hobbies, or computers. Without properly trained teachers, students cannot excel to their highest potential, and often find themselves bored and frustrated in school. According to an NRC/GT study, 61% of classroom teachers did not receive any training in meeting the needs of gifted and talented students. The NRC/GT also found that gifted students experience no instructional or curricular differentiation in 84% of the activities in which they participated. The gifted education initiative, receives just 2.6 out of every $100 spent on education, according to the federal K-12 budget for 2007. All children are special, unique and have gifts and talents, but academically gifted children need more higher-order thinking and problem-solving challenges than are available in most regular classrooms. Gifted children deserve teachers that are prepared to meet their needs. They typically have more intense feelings and emotions, at earlier ages, than their peers. There are no laws to ensure they are provided with educations that challenge them, the IDEA Act requires this for children in Special Education, but not for gifted children. Just as a child of less-than-average mental ability frequently has trouble keeping up with his classmates, so a child of above-average ability has trouble staying behind with them. Statistics indicate that the argument 'cream will rise to the top', turns out to be incorrect. Gifted students should be able to learn at their own speed not someone else's, skip over work they already know and understand, study things of interest beyond basic school work, and work with abstract concepts that require more than simple thinking. If this cannot be achieved in the regular classroom, then other options must be considered. Gifted children have a right to a free and appropriate education just as all children do. He always wanted to explain things, But no one cared.So he drew. Sometimes he would draw, and it wasn't anything. He wanted to carve it in stone or write it in the sky, and it would be only him and the sky and the things inside him that needed saying. It was after that he drew the picture. He kept it under his pillow, and would let no one see it. He would look at it every night and think about it. When he started school, he brought it with him, not to show anyone, just to have along as a friend. It was funny about school. He sat in a square, brown desk, like all the other square, brown desks. He thought it should be red. And his room was a square, brown room, like all the other square, brown rooms. It was tight and close and stiff. He hated to hold the pencil and chalk, his arms, stiff, his feet flat on the floor, stiff, the teacher watching and watching. The teacher came and spoke to him. She told him to wear a tie like all the other boys. He said he didn't like them. She said it didn't matter. After that, they drew. He drew all yellow. It was the way he felt about morning, and it was beautiful. The teacher came and smiled at him. "What's this?" she said. "Why don't you draw something like Ken's drawing? Isn't that beautiful?" After that, his mother bought him a tie, and he always drew airplanes and rocket ships like everyone else. And he threw the old picture away. And when he lay alone looking at the sky, it was big and blue and all of everything, but he wasn't anymore. He was square inside and brown, and his hands were stiff. He was like everything else. The things inside that needed saying didn't need it anymore. It had stopped pushing. It was crushed. STIFF. Like everything else. This was said to be written by a high school senior in Alton, Illinois, two weeks before he committed suicide. Adams, M., Ball, S., Braithwaite, J., Kensell, H., & Low, B. (1992). Meeting community needs: Sydney: Macquarie University Printery. Benbow, C. & Stanley, J. (1997). Inequity inequity: How "equity" can lead to inequity for high-potential students, Psychology, Public Policy and Law, 2(2), 249-292. Bevan-Brown, J. (1993). Special abilities: A Maori perspective. Unpublished M.Ed Thesis, Massey University. Culbertson and D. Willis (Eds.), Testing young children (pp. 383-407). Austin, TX: Pro-Ed. Dabrowski, K. (1966). The Theory of Positive Disintegration. International Journal of Psychiatry, 2(2), 229-244. Gross, M. (1997). Affective development of gifted and talented children. Paper presented at the NSW Institute for Educational Research Seminar Series, UNSW, Kensington, March 21. Halsted, J.W. (1994). Some of my best friends are books: Guiding gifted readers. Dayton, OH: Ohio Psychology Press. Harper Collins (n.d.). Retrieved April 5,2007 from http://www.harpercollins.com/author/AuthorExtra.aspx?displayType=interview&authorID=18819 Johnson, C. (1981) Smart Kids Have Problems, Too. Today's Education, 70. Nexus Research Group http://www.nexusresearchgroup.com/gifted_kids/gifted4.htm National Association for Gifted Students (n.d,). Retrieved April 2, 2007 from http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=533 Reid, B.& McGuire,M. (1995) Square Pegs in Round Holes, These Kids Don't Fit: High Ability Students With Behavioral Problems. The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented. Webb, J.& Kleine, P (1993). Assessing gifted and talented children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrentAllen Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Sequoia, Not only can I name our Superintendent (and board members - I actually call them sometimes), I am happy to report that he sought out, and became a member of the Executive Board of our Council. He is a big supporter of Scouting (I guess that is obvious). We have a great elementary school, where the PTA charters our Pack. The big difference between our school (one of the top in the state) and others in the county is the parent involvment, as has been mentioned. Unfortunately, some parents move into our district and expect their kids to suddenly turn in to star students. They don't realize it also takes the parents working with their kids at night and on weekends to make a real difference. That takes work, and requires turning the television off - so maybe we are doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Where did we get the notion that Education should be a function of Government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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