The Values Method and Scouters

[John-in-KC]

In the Summer Camp Forum, in the thread where MarkS was calling for help because he was late on his unit National Tour Permit, scotteng wrote:

 

"When all else fails have a good time and do the paperwork later. Maybe they will believe you when you say "you mean I need a tour permit to go to a BSA summer camp?"

 

What can, should and does the Scout Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan mean to Scouters? Are we expected to honor the Values Method of Scouting? If not, why not?

[Lisabob]

I can understand how Mark might not have realized you are supposed to submit the national permit app so far in advance - these things happen and he's obviously following up to fix it. But to say "oh, you mean we needed a permit?" is just a little too much.

 

Bottom line for me: "plausible deniability" might have worked (sort of) for various politicians but it is NOT what I expect of the people who are role models, mentors, and caretakers for my child.

 

 

[scottteng]

Guess I needed a /s Sarcasm tag !

[GernBlansten]

Proper XML tagging for sarcasm would be

Insert sarcasm here

[GernBlansten]

Blast this software!

Can't edit my previous post.

 

[sARCASM] Insert Sarcasm here... [/sARCASM]

[John-in-KC]

It's one problem with the written word. Not all literary devices work easily. Thanks for the clarity.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think we're being a bit hard on scotteng, eh?

 

Let's say MarkS had forgotten about the National Tour Permit until the Friday before the trip, and there's just no way to get it done. I don't think anybody would argue that the appropriate thing to do in such a case is cancel summer camp for all the boys because of a paperwork glitch. We'd all go anyway, paperwork or no.

 

Da hard part about the Oath and Law is that sometimes it requires us to balance competing "goods", or to triage multiple "bads". When dealing with a late tour permit at regional, are we Obedient (disallow any after the one month lead requirement) or Helpful?

 

I tend to view all the 12 as equally weighted elements of character, eh? So no one point trumps the others. To my mind, it's an excellent example to the kids if Scouters show by example, and explain, the different ways they think about balancing points of the Oath and Law.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Oh, there is a "Values Method" now? I must have missed the announcement.

 

Beavah writes:

 

"I tend to view all the 12 as equally weighted elements of character, eh? So no one point trumps the others. To my mind, it's an excellent example to the kids if Scouters show by example, and explain, the different ways they think about balancing points of the Oath and Law."

 

Can I play?

 

The BSA 12 (or the Baden-Powell 10) are not of equal value!

 

"Trustworthy" and "Helpful" trump all the other Scout Laws.

 

They are the "Left Hand of God," the two qualities that all religions have in common. The Ten Commandments? Not so much.

 

I would have included "Kind," but the original purpose of this Scout Law was to be kind to animals, and kindness is implied in the Matthew 25:31-46 ("The Sheep and the Goats") account of helpfulness which (in Jesus' "Final Judgement") is all that counts. The goats might disagree.

 

Friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent (in the good sense of the term "reverent"), are all the natural qualities a trustworthy helpful being.

 

The "Right Hand of God" Scout Laws most often used for evil:

 

"Loyal," "Obedient," and "Reverent" (in the loyal and obedient sense of the term "reverent")!

 

My favorite Scout Law is "Cheerful."

 

And of course Baden-Powell's "unwritten" 11th Scout Law: "A Scout is not a fool."

 

Kudu

 

 

[John-in-KC]

OK, so I confused Ideals and Values.

 

From Roget's Thesaurus online:

5 results for: ideals

1-5 of 5 results

 

View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web

 

Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus - Cite This Source

Main Entry: ideals

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: beliefs

Synonyms: ethics, goals, morals, principles, standards, values

Source: Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)

Copyright 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

 

Emphasis added

[Kudu]

I would be happy to explain the distinction for you, John!

 

[sarcasm]

 

Ideals, ethics, goals = Relativistic (Democratic)

 

Morals, principles, standards, values = Absolute (Republican)

 

Obviously you don't watch enough Fox News and 700 Club.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

On further reflection since my last post, I decided that Jesus was right.

 

If a being is truly helpful, then "trustworthy" is usually redundant or irrelevant.

 

So, "Helpful" trumps all of the other Scout Laws, and the Ten Commandments too.

 

Kudu

 

[eagle97_78]

If we as leaders don't live up to the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan then how can we expect the youth that we are working with and trying to enstill these values into, to follow them and live by them. I grew up in the program and I have always tried to live by these values, but sometimes we as people do slip. When we do slip we have to step back and re-evaluate the reason's that we slipped. So we need to take that comment that was made and thing of it as a grain of salt and throw it away and forget about the comment. Becuase we all tend to get too critical when someone says something that we don't like or agree with.

 

Aristotle said,"it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

[Eamonn]

I didn't participate in the other thread.

It does seem that something did not go the way it is supposed to.Things didn't get done when they should have got done.

OK, give the person who is at fault twenty lashes with a wet noodle!!

Then as an organization that claims "To help other people at all times" Give the powers that be an opportunity to "Walk the walk"

Given all the high tech communication tools that are available, if someone really wanted to be "Helpful" the permit could be in the hands of the people who need it in less than 15 minutes.

What a wonderful example of the Scout Oath and Law at work that would be!!

If I were the person who didn't have the permit.

I'd come clean to the SE. Explain what has or hasn't happened.

I feel sure any SE would be able to come up with a plan "B".

Of course I'd run the risk that he might say that without the permit we couldn't go!

But somehow I just don't see that happening.

 

Eamonn.

 

[Beavah]

So, "Helpful" trumps all of the other Scout Laws, and the Ten Commandments too.

 

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love he Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40).

 

Yah, Kudu, well done, good and faithful servant! Wouldn't have thought it of you, paraphrasin' scripture like that. Love your neighbor, and da rest follows. It even resolves the odd cases like when being Helpful is the wrong thing to do, because lovin' the person means sometimes lettin' him struggle to learn and do it himself.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Kudu,

 

I don't do cable TV, nor cell phone. My budget allows a decent ISP, so that's what I have at home

 

It's a very long story, and not worth recounting here.